Terminology For Non-Catholics

[Guest Tony Atonement]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='24 November 2009 - 05:44 PM' timestamp='1259102659' post='2008741']
[img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/lol_pound.gif[/img] Lol!!!
[/quote]


This man has not told us what he is laughing at.

[Veridicus]

[quote name='Formosus' date='27 October 2009 - 03:27 PM' timestamp='1256675263' post='1992276']
Heretic can only apply if they once believed the faith and then rejected it. So if a non-Catholic once believed in the Holy Trinity, then rejected that belief, then they could be labeled a heretic.
[/quote]

I think you are blending the terms heresy and apostasy.

[Apotheoun]

The term heretic (formal or material) properly applies to one rejects the Orthodox faith - as a whole or in part - after baptism.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='27 October 2009 - 07:18 PM' timestamp='1256689129' post='1992414']
It is baptism, and not the title "Catholic," that is important in answering this question, because anyone who is validly baptized, but who rejects the faith - in whole or in part - is either a formal or material heretic.
[/quote]
Technically, a baptized person who rejects the faith in whole would be an apostate.

[Nihil Obstat]

Is an apostate also a formal heretic?

[MissyP89]

I would say so--it's still a rejection.

As for terminology...non-Catholic or Protestant. If I called any of my Protestant friends heretics, they would probably hate me. And that's no good for dialogue.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='25 November 2009 - 10:39 AM' timestamp='1259170779' post='2009281']
Is an apostate also a formal heretic?
[/quote]
Yes.

[Aloysius]

[quote name='Tony Atonement' date='24 November 2009 - 05:17 PM' timestamp='1259097439' post='2008685']
For you to even open the question for people's opinion is to dismiss the official RC term ( "separated"). So you are, as they say, the typical, "cafeteria catholic", picking and choosing whatever makes you feel nice and fuzzy.
For your information, the CCC states that God uses other churches "as a means of salvation" (#819), and no where in modern RC literature are Protestants referred to as heretics--nor are they said to be in a "grave" situation. So you are demonstrating your own rebellion to your own church. Why don't you try starting your own denomination?
[/quote]
hermeneutic of rupture alert!!!

actually, the Code of Canon Law (1983) and the Catechism of the Catholic Church do use the terms heresy and schism.

[quote]CCC 2089 Incredulity is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it. "Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him."11[/quote]

the catechism says that Protestants often cannot be charged with the sin of heresy; that is to say they are not culpable of their heresy.... which means they're not formal heretics. material heretics are those who are not culpable for their post-baptismal denial of some truth of the Catholic Faith but who do indeed deny some truth of the Catholic faith.

anyway, I suggest you start a new topic if you wish to argue the faith/works thing. keep in mind that Catholics believe we are saved by grace alone, working through our faith, with our faith being sustained by our good works (because faith without works is dead, good works keep faith alive; and faith acts as the runway for the plane of grace to land on... the fertile soil for the seed of grace to be planted in). we were the first to condemn the Pelagian [u]heresy[/u] that said one could earn salvation by one's own willpower rather than by the freely given grace of God.

[Guest Tony Atonement]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='25 November 2009 - 06:27 PM' timestamp='1259191652' post='2009451']
hermeneutic of rupture alert!!!

actually, the Code of Canon Law (1983) and the Catechism of the Catholic Church do use the terms heresy and schism.



the catechism says that Protestants often cannot be charged with the sin of heresy; that is to say they are not culpable of their heresy.... which means they're not formal heretics. material heretics are those who are not culpable for their post-baptismal denial of some truth of the Catholic Faith but who do indeed deny some truth of the Catholic faith.

anyway, I suggest you start a new topic if you wish to argue the faith/works thing. keep in mind that Catholics believe we are saved by grace alone, working through our faith, with our faith being sustained by our good works (because faith without works is dead, good works keep faith alive; and faith acts as the runway for the plane of grace to land on... the fertile soil for the seed of grace to be planted in). we were the first to condemn the Pelagian [u]heresy[/u] that said one could earn salvation by one's own willpower rather than by the freely given grace of God.
[/quote]


Perhaps I will indeed start a new thread in a few days as you suggest. But I will remind you that instead of answering the charge I submitted per V-2 wherein they state that good works not only have the power to wash, cleanse and redeem (as well as making satisfaction to God to "atone" for sins by voluntary punishments-- per the Council of Trent) you ignored it and attempted to vindicate yourself by telling me Catholics believe they are saved by "grace ALONE"--(a statement I could not find in your Catechism when I looked under that heading in the index). By definition, God's grace is FREE, as specificially stated in Holy Writ. While you appear to agree with that, you're not being totally honest. From what I understand, and I have no reason to doubt I'm wrong since I am an ex-Catholic who left on purely theological grounds, Catholicism teaches that God's grace, [i]working in you to do [u]good works[/u][/i], merits eternal life, per the Council of Trent. And that's saying something entirely different than what Protestants (and the Bible!) mean when [u]we[/u] say that we're saved by grace alone, and which is why I left the Roman church when I realized I had been lied to. The topic of this thread is "replying to terminology", and if there ever is a difference in terminology regarding the issue of being saved by "grace alone", it is just here in those two words. You are "saying" you believe in His free grace, but do not do that in practice, nor by definition. Roman Catholicsim is like a store coupon for a free product. In big letters it says "FREE". But in small letters, it says you first must buy two others as regular price.

[Nihil Obstat]

If anyone is off topic, friend, it's you.

Terminology as in "what do we call them?" Not "what do we call what they believe?"

[Aloysius]

seriously, start another thread. but God's grace is a free gift like the free gift of a puppy; it's no less a free gift even if you have to pay to feed it. the scriptures do not say what you think they say

but seriously, start a new thread. this thread's question is solely what non-Catholics are called from a Catholic point of view; ie, heretic, schismati, separated brethren, et cetera. I'm not answering you point by point until/unless you start another thread

[add]

[quote name='OraProMe' date='25 October 2009 - 03:00 AM' timestamp='1256454049' post='1991027']
What do you think is better when describing non-Catholics. Heretic and schismatic or separated brethren? Smooch up or try to emphasis the gravity of their situation? Justify your answer.
[/quote]

Dammed?

[Antigonos]

[quote name='OraProMe' date='25 October 2009 - 10:00 AM' timestamp='1256454049' post='1991027']
What do you think is better when describing non-Catholics. Heretic and schismatic or separated brethren? Smooch up or try to emphasis the gravity of their situation? Justify your answer.
[/quote]
"Non-Catholics" takes in a lot of ground. Do you mean other non-Catholic Christians, or all persons of whatever faith who are not Catholic [Moslems, Hindus, Buddhists, etc.]?

I believe the Pope has referred to the Jews as "elder brethren".

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='apparently' date='26 November 2009 - 07:38 AM' timestamp='1259242734' post='2009661']
Dammed?
[/quote]
Noooooo............

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='apparently' date='27 November 2009 - 12:38 AM' timestamp='1259242734' post='2009661']
Dammed?
[/quote]

To be damned you would need to break the prime law. To love your God and to treat your neighbour as yourself!

[size="2"][i]A law expert questions Jesus.[/i]

[/size][size="2"]"What must I do to inherit eternal life?"

[/size][size="2"][b]Jesus replies, "What is written in the law? How do you read it?"[/b]

[/size][size="2"][b]The man answers,"[u]Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind. And Love your neighbour as yourself.[/u]"[/b]

[/size][size="2"]"You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. [b][u]"Do this and you will live"! [/u][/b][/size]

Edited November 27, 2009 by Mark of the Cross