JimR-OCDS Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 Apotheoun [quote]This definition is too restricted. A person can be a heretic without teaching anything. In fact, one is a heretic simply by holding opinions contrary to the faith of the Church, i.e., opinions which make it impossible for him to give orthodox worship to the Father, through the Son, in the power and energy of the Holy Spirit.[/quote] In the context of this discussion, heretic is one declared so by the Church, which was more so toward those who taught, contrary doctrines. [quote]The term "heretic" is simply a word describing a state of affairs in the case of one who has either formally rejected the orthodox faith of the Church, or who materially holds opinions contrary to the one faith through no fault of his own.[/quote] OK, but the protestant who is called a heretic, would have a more narrow view of the term. [quote]These more modern terms can be applied to anyone who has been baptized outside the Church, and can be appropriately used in place of or along side the term heretic (material or formal).[/quote] In order to keep a tone of Christian Charity, it would be better to avoid the use of the term, Heretic, when refering to our protestant brothers and sisters. Keep in mind, we're not talking about dealing with legal scholars who have a deep understanding of the terms. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 [quote name='Sternhauser' date='25 October 2009 - 03:34 PM' timestamp='1256502853' post='1991155'] I should have said "baptized with a baptism accepted by the Catholic Church." ~Sternhauser [/quote] The Church accepts many if not most Protestant baptisms as valid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sojourner Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' date='26 October 2009 - 02:07 PM' timestamp='1256580460' post='1991591'] The Church accepts many if not most Protestant baptisms as valid. [/quote] Only Trinitarian baptism (in the name of the Father, Son, and Spirit). Several denominations baptize only in the name of the Son. Those aren't valid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 [quote name='Terra Firma' date='26 October 2009 - 06:53 PM' timestamp='1256601229' post='1991760'] Only Trinitarian baptism (in the name of the Father, Son, and Spirit). Several denominations baptize only in the name of the Son. Those aren't valid. [/quote] I am aware of that. The denominations that baptize only "in the name of Jesus" or "in the name of the Lord Jesus" are pretty rare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 [quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='26 October 2009 - 07:52 AM' timestamp='1256565123' post='1991470'] In the context of this discussion, heretic is one declared so by the Church, which was more so toward those who taught, contrary doctrines.[/quote] That is an interesting opinion. Nevertheless I stand by what I said, as I see it your view of what makes a person a heretic is too limited. [quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='26 October 2009 - 07:52 AM' timestamp='1256565123' post='1991470'] OK, but the protestant who is called a heretic, would have a more narrow view of the term.[/quote] As a former Protestant I have no problem admitting that I was a material heretic prior to my conversion. [quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='26 October 2009 - 07:52 AM' timestamp='1256565123' post='1991470'] In order to keep a tone of Christian Charity, it would be better to avoid the use of the term, Heretic, when refering to our protestant brothers and sisters.[/quote] Stating the truth clearly is never uncharitable. [quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='26 October 2009 - 07:52 AM' timestamp='1256565123' post='1991470'] Keep in mind, we're not talking about dealing with legal scholars who have a deep understanding of the terms.[/quote] Heresy is not about law or "legal enactments"; instead, it is about the failure to give right worship (ορθο δόξα) to the Father, through the Son, in the power of the Spirit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommas_boy Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 "Heretic" is definitely strong. Actually, I tend to use "heretic" more for Catholics than for non-Catholics (for example, Nancy Pelosi is a "heretic" because she has been warned for her stances, but persists in them nonetheless). Schismatic, too. I think because this sounds like "Heretic". I don't like "separated brethren", because it first brings to mind "separated". Instead, I prefer "our protestant brothers and sisters" when referring to the group at large. It doesn't have the word "separate" in it, still distinguishes that they are of the protestant tradition, and emphasizes our unity in Christ. When referring to just one person, I would probably just say, "So and so is a protestant", because it's simpler, and would make them feel less awkward than anything else. I feel that I can do a lot more to include them with actions and non-verbals than I can by tacking on some ecumenical phraseology at that point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Formosus Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 [quote name='OraProMe' date='25 October 2009 - 04:00 AM' timestamp='1256454049' post='1991027'] What do you think is better when describing non-Catholics. Heretic and schismatic or separated brethren? Smooch up or try to emphasis the gravity of their situation? Justify your answer. [/quote] Heretic can only apply if they once believed the faith and then rejected it. So if a non-Catholic once believed in the Holy Trinity, then rejected that belief, then they could be labeled a heretic. If a non-Catholic was born a protestant, and never believed in the Eucharist, then they can not be called a heretic (though their view would still be heretical). In order to be a schismatic, one actually has to separate themselves willfully from the Church, so that doesn't apply to people who were never Catholic to begin with. Separated brethren is a fairly accurate term. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 [quote name='OraProMe' date='25 October 2009 - 03:00 AM' timestamp='1256454049' post='1991027'] What do you think is better when describing non-Catholics. Heretic and schismatic or separated brethren? Smooch up or try to emphasis the gravity of their situation? Justify your answer. [/quote] Only a Catholic can be a heretic, only a non-Catholic can be separated brethern. I'll have to think about schismatic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 [quote name='Winchester' date='27 October 2009 - 05:36 PM' timestamp='1256683012' post='1992342'] Only a Catholic can be a heretic, only a non-Catholic can be separated brethern. I'll have to think about schismatic. [/quote] A heretic is by definition non-Catholic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' date='27 October 2009 - 06:58 PM' timestamp='1256684283' post='1992347'] A heretic is by definition non-Catholic. [/quote] No, to be a heretic, one must be a Catholic. One doesn't cease to be Catholic because one becomes a heretic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 [quote name='Winchester' date='27 October 2009 - 06:21 PM' timestamp='1256685680' post='1992364'] No, to be a heretic, one must be a Catholic. One doesn't cease to be Catholic because one becomes a heretic. [/quote] One excommunicates himself when he becomes a heretic (cf. CIC, can. 1364). An excommunicated person is cut off from communion with the Church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' date='27 October 2009 - 07:42 PM' timestamp='1256686964' post='1992386'] One excommunicates himself when he becomes a heretic (cf. CIC, can. 1364). An excommunicated person is cut off from communion with the Church. [/quote] Yes, he's a Catholic out of communion. The marks are indelible, however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 [quote name='Winchester' date='27 October 2009 - 06:45 PM' timestamp='1256687116' post='1992390'] Yes, he's a Catholic out of communion. The marks are indelible, however. [/quote] Baptism and certainly imprints an indelible mark on the soul of the recipient of that sacrament; however, I would hardly call someone who was baptized as an adult in a Protestant ceremony a Catholic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' date='27 October 2009 - 07:49 PM' timestamp='1256687377' post='1992393'] Baptism and certainly imprints an indelible mark on the soul of the recipient of that sacrament; however, I would hardly call someone who was baptized as an adult in a Protestant ceremony a Catholic. [/quote] You forget confirmation? And Baptism in the name of the Trinity in any church is accepted by the Church. It does not make one a Catholic, I agree. One can never cease to be a Catholic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 Anyone who is baptized and who rejects the faith - as a whole or in part - is either a material or formal heretic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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