Srs Of The Holy Innocents & St. Gianna Molla

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='Gemma' date='29 October 2009 - 12:40 AM' timestamp='1256737241' post='1992686']
Annie--if you check back in the archives of "founders and friends," you will see that what you've been told to do is the "Groundwork" for the charism which is what's done before starting work on the Seven Pillars.
...
Bishops are supposed to be "nurturing fathers" according to canon 605. I suppose going to him with only a smattering on a page is considered something akin to telling one's husband that one is with child (please do not misconstrew that). But, "Nurturing father" is the Church's language, not mine. It was our hermit-canonist who said that a foundress is a foundress from the moment of "conception" and that we have a right to promote our charism. I repeat, this came from a canonist. The only way to know if the community is going to have a chance of growing is to notify the world that the charism exists, and let the Holy Ghost work on attraction. If souls are attracted to it, work together. If they aren't, adapt a "That's not for me" attitude, and go your way in peace.
...
I'm almost willing to bet money that you will end up going the route laid out by Fr. Gambari's book, in spite of having rejected said publication, mainly because he used to work for the Congregation for Religious (the name is too long and I can never remember all of it) in Rome. Sr. Maria Michaele, OP, translated it and had it reproduced.
...
I was told by the people who prayed for the charisms 20 years ago--quite resoundingly--"Get a canonist." So I did. And she's talking to the bishop on our behalf. That's what's working for us. The other emerging charisms (our affiliates) don't have a home diocese yet, so we can't do that.
[/quote]


Gemma - it might be the ADD you have told us about, or not, I really don't know, but you seem to misinterpret what I have written as a criticism of you or the way you are doing things, when this is not the case. I am going to address it here because I think that it is important that we clarify things instead of ignoring them.

I was trying to point out that the way one person does things is not the [u]only [/u]way to do things, but just [u]one [/u]way to do things, and in your case, it is obviously a very well researched way too. But if you read my remarks about Rosalind Moss, you will see that she did not do things the way that you describe at all, and this is not the path that I am able to take either. That is not a criticism of you. What I was trying to say in my very awkward way obviously, was that there are as many ways to start a new community as there are new communities to be started since each one is unique. Granted, there are procedures and processes that must be followed along the way, but many different ways of achieving these. I was also, believe it or not, supporting you in what you are doing while also pointing out that your way is not the only way. And this means that you need to be a little more flexible in your thinking as well. Not everyone may [u]appear [/u]to follow the "Seven Pillars" as written but will no doubt get everything covered over time, especially those things that are canon law. You know how some cooks work with a recipe while others may improvise wildly. Well, we all work differently, but each way is equally valid if the meal gets produced in the end.

You also misunderstood me about Fr Gambari's book. I did [b][u]not [/u][/b]"reject" Father Gambari's publication at all (as you have stated). In fact, I got my copy from the translator herself, Sr Maria Michele, because I was unable to access the IRL website from here for some strange reason, so I contacted her directly. She was most helpful to me and sent me what she said was her last copy. I have personally read Fr Gambari's book from cover to cover and found it very helpful and very interesting.

What I was trying to say was that the Vicar for Religious did not want to use Fr Gambari's book but preferred to work directly with her own canon lawyer. The amazing thing is that the Vicar did not tell me to go away and get a canon lawyer myself, or to get more women involved or to write up rules and constitutions or set up a website or anything like that. She simply spoke with me for about two hours about the proposed community and then told me that she wanted to consult with her own canon lawyer about all of this. She said she wanted to have answers to any possible questions that the Archbishop might ask, and she wanted to make sure everything was in place before I meet with him. Now I know that this is not how most Vicars respond, but this is how she responded to me, so that is why I say that every situation is unique. Was I supposed to tell her that I had not yet completed the "groundwork" and the "Seven Pillars" and that she had to read the book and follow it? Of course not, that would have been silly. She was offering to help me in ways that I couldn't possibly imagine, and to do things that I simply have no resources to do. I think that the Vicar wants to do all of this because new communities are a very rare thing here in Australia, and she knows that it will be a new thing for the Archbishop too.

As for going to my Bishop with "only a smattering on a page" -- and this being "... something akin to telling one's husband that one is with child"; well, I have to tell you that it will be even worse than that, unless the Vicar herself has some ideas or asks me to prepare "a smattering on a page" since I took nothing in writing to her. I am working on the theory that the Holy Spirit will have to speak for me because I haven't a clue what I am doing. When I first went to her, I had no idea what I was going to say, and I still don't know what we talked about really. I simply told her that I felt God was asking me to do this, and we started talking. At first she was very hesitant because I was bringing up things that she just doesn't agree with, like wearing habits! And I told her it would be a traditional community - where hers is very liberal. In fact, almost all Australian women's religious communities are very liberal here. Then, when she asked me how our sisters would earn an income, I told her I had no idea. When she asked me what our apostolate would be, I said prayer and presence (in habit), but I didn't really know what I meant by that. And the funniest thing of all was when she asked me how many sisters would be starting the community, and I said, just me. You should have seen the look on her face at that!

Finally she asked me how this community would be any different or offer anything more than any already established community. I couldn't think straight and I even wondered myself what I was doing there and how could I think that yet another religious community was needed when Australia already has so many, and we would be competing with them for vocations, which are already at an all time low here. So all I said was that we would be Carmelites, in the world, in habit, a visible expression of God's love for each one of us through His Church. I didn't know how else to describe it, or what else to say to her. I then said that if it was His work then it would happen, with or without me, and if it wasn't, then I wouldn't want to do it anyway.

So I was preparing in my mind for her to tell me to go away and do exactly what you talk about - write it up, think about it, pray about it, get a canon lawyer, get women involved, etc etc.... but just as I thought that she wasn't the least bit interested in what I was saying, she stopped asking questions and seemed to think (pray) about it for a minute. At that moment I do believe that the Holy Spirit was speaking to her heart, because it certainly wasn't anything that I said that changed her mind.

Come on, you have to admit that it is funny (not to mention embarrassing). I was all prepared to be humiliated when all of a sudden she started telling me what she was going to do next. When I got over the shock I became brave enough to ask her some questions then. I asked her if the Archbishop gave his permission to start, would I be doing a Novitiate with an existing community (and I wondered how I could, since the communities here aren't anything like the one I propose), and asked if I should get a habit blessed by him and start wearing it, and should I call myself sister... and so on. Then she said that she would get all of these answers when she met with the canon lawyer, so that we would be able to present it all to the Archbishop when we meet with him. So, what was I supposed to do then? Refer her back to the book again? No, I waited on the Lord. Then last week she sent me an email asking me for more personal information about myself, so I sent her a resume/info sheet about my life. Now I am waiting again. Yes, this is not the usual way... but that is why I say that one has to be open to the ways that the Spirit moves in each of us.

And this is really not a criticism of your ways. But as for many of the things that you feel you need to do, like "promote the charism" and recruit others etc, these are not things that I can do if I am to follow the directions of my SD and the Vicar. Will I end up following "the route laid out by Father Gambari's book"? Well, I will most certainly follow all of the canon laws required, and probably most of the steps, but not necessarily in the way or in the order that you are doing it. So be careful how you place that bet!

And you can be sure that all of the questions that people ask you about your proposed communities will only help you to clarify them more in your mind, and to make your websites clearer as well. So all of this is good, hopefully for all of us.

[Gemma]

I didn't interpret your post as a criticism. You know autistics follow rules, and admittedly, I do get inflexible at times. But others don't usually go to the VR. Many, many times we've been advised to avoid the VR--they put the "no" in innovation, so I was really and truly scared for you, and praying she would listen to her heart.

I was simply making the [i]observation [/i]that you've been redirected by your SD to the Groundwork stage.

Amazing and fascinating is how charisms emerge. God's own way--awesome and ever new. Don't you enjoy watching such things grow?

Pray for Karen--please.

Blessings,
Gemma

[Gemma]

Karen wants to know: are any discerners interested in joining her?

She would prefer to approach the diocese with companions, not just herself.

Please let us know if you have any attraction to this charism.

Blessings,
Gemma

[AccountDeleted]

I don't want to highjack this thread since it is about a specific new community, but since Gemma referred me back to her Founders group to read about the Seven Pillars and the groundwork stage, I did find some things that I thought might be of interest to others who are thinking of starting a new community - and which serve as a real caution, in my mind as to why it is so important to at least make the Bishop aware of the intention to start a new community, if not to get his formal approval. If he is the spiritual "father" after all, he really needs to know about the pregnancy, right?

Gemma, once again, this is not a criticism of the way you choose to do things, but it does seem so important to me to be in synch with one's Shepherd during this time of discernment. When you ask for new recruits for Karen's group, it needs to be made known to those discerners whether or not she has at least the tacit and implicit permission of her VR or bishop to proceed at this point in time, if not his actual approval. If she does not have a diocese yet, then this needs to be made abundantly clear to all, and also the possible ramifications of this for the long term (see below).

One poster on the Founders group (I won't name her for privacy), wrote this (emphasis mine)...

[i]I have not seen mentioned , "Guidelines for Establishing Associations with the Intent of Becoming Institutes of Consecrated Life"(*see footnote). This document is available from all [u]Diocesan Vicars of Religious[/u], [b]whom you should be meeting with as soon as possible [/b]after discerning your inspiration to begin a new religious community.[/i]


She also wrote about this experience, which I think serves as a real red flag for those who fail to get their Vicar or Bishop involved at the beginning...

[i]Since we started our new community as women who were previously in a new community that [b]had not been formerly approved by a Bishop we are basically [u]lay women again [/u]starting over from scratch[/b]. Our many years of formation [b]is not being recognized [/b]and we even have to have a period of discernment with an approved, established religious community who will report back to the Vicar and Cardinal, that we have; (1) a religious vocation, (2) that The Holy Spirit is really calling us to begin a new religious community. We have to go and live with this community, and if they approve of us and the Vicar and Cardinal approve we will then start a canonical year, living and being formed by them as religious Sisters and Foundresses.[/i]

[i]Yes, we have been allowed to still wear our habits and veils and be called Sister, because of some extraordinary circumstances regarding our old community. [b]Normally we would have to be back in secular clothes[/b].[/i]


and when asked about a website, she said...

[i]We will [b]NOT have a website until the Archdiocese says that we can[/b],we are doing everything with the Vicar for Religious and His Eminence's approvals.[/i]


And in Father Gambari's book, he says (emphasis mine again)
[i]“[b]At the very beginning the bishop is called upon [/b]to deal with a reality which is not of his own making, a reality whose implementation requires his approval.”[/i] (page 15)

And
[i]“[b]He is to [u]help [/u]the founding members [/b]to discern, to understand and to be faithful to the charism gifted to them by the Holy Spirit. At the same time, it is his responsibility [b]to verify that charism [/b]and to guide the members in their faithful response to that charism."[/i] (page 16)



This is me on my soapbox again, I know, but one of the real problems in the Church today seems to be the failure of religious to be under obedience to Rome. I have read about nuns working in abortion clinics as escorts, attending meetings on women's ordination against the express directions of the Vatican to the contrary, and taking over Church assets after deciding to form their own community from a spirituality that they say has gone "beyond Jesus"! All this tells me is just how important "obedience" is [u]from the very beginning[/u], and not just following what one presumes to be the Holy Spirit (which every one of these disaffected sisters is claiming as their guide in their actions).

If one is a founder of something new in the Church, then one needs to be under obedience to the Church hierarchy in some way from the very beginning (and not just a SD). And while I can see that the Bishop would not want to approve of every new charism that leaps to his attention (after all, there were about 700 emerging communities in North America in 1994 and of these, 173 were in the US in 1998-99) - it does seem sensible to at least contact one's VR and/or bishop and let them know what is happening and even ask for permission to begin (which they are supposed to support in helping to discern if it is the Holy Spirit or not). Although canon law may not [b]require [/b]this, Father Gambari does say "The initiatives of the faithful [b]have their origin and develop [/b]under the aquiescing eye of the bishop." (page 17)

Perhaps there are very good reasons for not involving one's VR or bishop at the beginning, but as a courtesy, it wouldn't hurt to at least keep them informed of this activity in their diocese. And it doesn't hurt humility either to have one's motivations and actions questioned by authority... this is good stuff for the soul.

I hope this isn't offensive in any way. I just have a real passion right now for obedience to authority, especially considering the condition of so many religious right now. Let us follow the Holy Spirit by all means, but let us do it under the authority of those whom God has placed above us in the hierarchy of the Church. And we need to be very clear to discerners just what our status is at all times, so as not to confuse or scandalise the faithful in any way. Ok, off the box again....




* Footnote[i] Marlene Weisenbeck, FSPA, as director of the Office of Consecrated Life in the Diocese of La Crosse prepared "Guidelines for Establishing Associations with the Intent of Becoming Institutes of Consecrated Life" for the National Conference of Vicars for Religious in 2002[/i](revised in 2004).

edited for typos (sorry if I didn't get them all!)...

Edited October 29, 2009 by nunsense

[tnavarro61]

Nice one again, NunSense! In my point of view, if we couldn't try to ask permission to the Bishop, how can the Bishop be rest assured of our obedience?

I know of a community (in fact a very popular community due to their habits) who were recognized as Private Association of Faithful in 1992. The foundress went out of the cloister to start the community in 1976 and she was permitted[b] to be in [/b]the diocese in USA, but not yet as a Private Association of Faithful. Now the community is close to being a religious order.

Now what's my point here? I just feel that new communities must obtain permission first and foremost. I think there's a difference between permission to start and approval as a private association of faithful.

Edited October 29, 2009 by tnavarro61

[Gemma]

[quote name='nunsense' date='29 October 2009 - 12:32 AM' timestamp='1256787160' post='1993119']
I don't want to highjack this thread since it is about a specific new community, but since Gemma referred me back to her Founders group to read about the Seven Pillars and the groundwork stage, I did find some things that I thought might be of interest to others who are thinking of starting a new community - and which serve as a real caution, in my mind as to why it is so important to at least make the Bishop aware of the intention to start a new community, if not to get his formal approval. If he is the spiritual "father" after all, he really needs to know about the pregnancy, right?

Gemma, once again, this is not a criticism of the way you choose to do things, but it does seem so important to me to be in synch with one's Shepherd during this time of discernment. When you ask for new recruits for Karen's group, it needs to be made known to those discerners whether or not she has at least the tacit and implicit permission of her VR or bishop to proceed at this point in time, if not his actual approval. If she does not have a diocese yet, then this needs to be made abundantly clear to all, and also the possible ramifications of this for the long term (see below).

One poster on the Founders group (I won't name her for privacy), wrote this (emphasis mine)...

[i]I have not seen mentioned , "Guidelines for Establishing Associations with the Intent of Becoming Institutes of Consecrated Life"(*see footnote). This document is available from all [u]Diocesan Vicars of Religious[/u], [b]whom you should be meeting with as soon as possible [/b]after discerning your inspiration to begin a new religious community.[/i]


She also wrote about this experience, which I think serves as a real red flag for those who fail to get their Vicar or Bishop involved at the beginning...

[i]Since we started our new community as women who were previously in a new community that [b]had not been formerly approved by a Bishop we are basically [u]lay women again [/u]starting over from scratch[/b]. Our many years of formation [b]is not being recognized [/b]and we even have to have a period of discernment with an approved, established religious community who will report back to the Vicar and Cardinal, that we have; (1) a religious vocation, (2) that The Holy Spirit is really calling us to begin a new religious community. We have to go and live with this community, and if they approve of us and the Vicar and Cardinal approve we will then start a canonical year, living and being formed by them as religious Sisters and Foundresses.[/i]

[i]Yes, we have been allowed to still wear our habits and veils and be called Sister, because of some extraordinary circumstances regarding our old community. [b]Normally we would have to be back in secular clothes[/b].[/i]


and when asked about a website, she said...

[i]We will [b]NOT have a website until the Archdiocese says that we can[/b],we are doing everything with the Vicar for Religious and His Eminence's approvals.[/i]


And in Father Gambari's book, he says (emphasis mine again)
[i]“[b]At the very beginning the bishop is called upon [/b]to deal with a reality which is not of his own making, a reality whose implementation requires his approval.”[/i] (page 15)

And
[i]“[b]He is to [u]help [/u]the founding members [/b]to discern, to understand and to be faithful to the charism gifted to them by the Holy Spirit. At the same time, it is his responsibility [b]to verify that charism [/b]and to guide the members in their faithful response to that charism."[/i] (page 16)



This is me on my soapbox again, I know, but one of the real problems in the Church today seems to be the failure of religious to be under obedience to Rome. I have read about nuns working in abortion clinics as escorts, attending meetings on women's ordination against the express directions of the Vatican to the contrary, and taking over Church assets after deciding to form their own community from a spirituality that they say has gone "beyond Jesus"! All this tells me is just how important "obedience" is [u]from the very beginning[/u], and not just following what one presumes to be the Holy Spirit (which every one of these disaffected sisters is claiming as their guide in their actions).

If one is a founder of something new in the Church, then one needs to be under obedience to the Church hierarchy in some way from the very beginning (and not just a SD). And while I can see that the Bishop would not want to approve of every new charism that leaps to his attention (after all, there were about 700 emerging communities in North America in 1994 and of these, 173 were in the US in 1998-99) - it does seem sensible to at least contact one's VR and/or bishop and let them know what is happening and even ask for permission to begin (which they are supposed to support in helping to discern if it is the Holy Spirit or not). Although canon law may not [b]require [/b]this, Father Gambari does say "The initiatives of the faithful [b]have their origin and develop [/b]under the aquiescing eye of the bishop." (page 17)

Perhaps there are very good reasons for not involving one's VR or bishop at the beginning, but as a courtesy, it wouldn't hurt to at least keep them informed of this activity in their diocese. And it doesn't hurt humility either to have one's motivations and actions questioned by authority... this is good stuff for the soul.

I hope this isn't offensive in any way. I just have a real passion right now for obedience to authority, especially considering the condition of so many religious right now. Let us follow the Holy Spirit by all means, but let us do it under the authority of those whom God has placed above us in the hierarchy of the Church. And we need to be very clear to discerners just what our status is at all times, so as not to confuse or scandalise the faithful in any way. Ok, off the box again....




* Footnote[i] Marlene Weisenbeck, FSPA, as director of the Office of Consecrated Life in the Diocese of La Crosse prepared "Guidelines for Establishing Associations with the Intent of Becoming Institutes of Consecrated Life" for the National Conference of Vicars for Religious in 2002[/i](revised in 2004).

edited for typos (sorry if I didn't get them all!)...
[/quote]

If the Groundwork was read correctly, I specifically mentioned that at some point in time between the first and second stages the SD--or the founder--would possibly contact the bishop. All of this is contingent upon discernment between the founder and the SD. It may be one session, it might be years, although I would highly discourage the latter. Most SDs leave it to the readiness of the founder. I am simply going off of experience.

As for the case you cited, our canonist was asked about the situation, and she said there is absolutely nothing in canon law that forbids a website, and it sounded more like the archdiocese doing that. This could be to test humility--IDK. The founder is known as the promoter, and the only way to see if the community is going to grow is to publicize it. It's ridiculous to think that all the founding vocations will come from the charism's locality, unless they're hand-picked by the bishop himself.

The Groundwork, as I said, is culled from experience, and is meant to be more a guide than a law, which it isn't. The Seven Pillars is canon law. They are what's expected before asking the bishop's recognition of the institute.

When I took the three charism proposals to the bishop 20 years ago, he was very, very interested in the coma nuns, and was interested to see what I would come up with. Obviously, God had other plans, as the Cloisterites are about to enter their second year of formation, and Karen's taking the reins with the Holy Innocents.

I was hoping that the coma nuns would come out of Dr. Gianna's Assistants for Life, but I will talk to the woman who was going to work with me on the coma nuns' lay branch all those years ago. She had insisted on "Compassionate Friends of the Comatose" for a name. We had concluded that the coma nuns would come from that group, and I informed the bishop of the development. Then life took another turn, and I ended up wife and mother.

BTW--please pray we can get an appt with the bishop of Knoxville on December 28--Feast of the Holy Innocents. My mom is slowly dying of a brain tumor right now, and there's no telling what shape she'll be in by that time. I keep wondering if I will be burying her during our 2 week Christmas vacation. She is weakening, blind, and has to be fed, but she is still lucid. I spoke with her by phone two days ago.

Blessings,
Gemma

[alleros]

Prayers for your mother, Gemma. Be assured of that. A hard time for you.

Much of the rest depends on what you mean by "religious life" and 'religious formation." We read here much that is not of that pure way of thinking that is essentially and eclectically of the religious mindset, and that tries to equate the religious mindset with the lay mindset, which is where Vatican 2 went badly wrong.

And of course there is a strong cultural divide here also.

And I wish that people who disagree would not pull the same old "You are being judgemental" thing out of the hat when disagreements happen.. ah well...

Edited October 29, 2009 by alleros

[AccountDeleted]

[quote] If the Groundwork was read correctly, I specifically mentioned that at some point in time between the first and second stages the SD--or the founder--would possibly contact the bishop. All of this is contingent upon discernment between the founder and the SD. It may be one session, it might be years, although I would highly discourage the latter. Most SDs leave it to the readiness of the founder. I am simply going off of experience. [/quote]

Once again, this is personal choice, but I would be doing this VERY early in the piece because let's face it, the bishop is the Shepherd.



[quote] As for the case you cited, our canonist was asked about the situation, and she said there is absolutely nothing in canon law that forbids a website, and it sounded more like the archdiocese doing that. This could be to test humility--IDK. The founder is known as the promoter, and the only way to see if the community is going to grow is to publicize it. It's ridiculous to think that all the founding vocations will come from the charism's locality, unless they're hand-picked by the bishop himself. [/quote]

And of course, a canon lawyer is going to be mainly concerned with what is or is not canon law - but there is more involved that just the legalities here. I agree that a website is not against canon law, but one needs to do everything in alignment with their bishop, so as not to confuse or scandalize the faithful - it is that simple. If the bishop is not comfortable with a website being set up, then this is more important that whether or not this is against canon law. It may have nothing to do with testing humility - it may have to do with a bigger picture for the diocese that the bishop knows about, but the founder does not. That is why it is so important to always be in alignment with the hierarchy of the Church. God knows what has to happen, so even if we experience set backs or obstacles along the way through superiors, then as long as we are doing what is right, and trusting in Him, we don't have anything to worry about. We are not in control.



[quote] The Groundwork, as I said, is culled from experience, and is meant to be more a guide than a law, which it isn't. The Seven Pillars is canon law. They are what's expected before asking the bishop's recognition of the institute.[/quote]

Yes, but recognition is very much down the track. First things first, which is to check in with one's bishop, get permission and keep him informed.



[quote]When I took the three charism proposals to the bishop 20 years ago, he was very, very interested in the coma nuns, and was interested to see what I would come up with. Obviously, God had other plans, as the Cloisterites are about to enter their second year of formation, and Karen's taking the reins with the Holy Innocents.

I was hoping that the coma nuns would come out of Dr. Gianna's Assistants for Life, but I will talk to the woman who was going to work with me on the coma nuns' lay branch all those years ago. She had insisted on "Compassionate Friends of the Comatose" for a name. We had concluded that the coma nuns would come from that group, and I informed the bishop of the development. Then life took another turn, and I ended up wife and mother.[/quote]

Well, this sounds like you went to the bishop first, which is all I am talking about for the other charisms as well. Things do sometimes change over time, but at least your bishop knew what you were trying to do.

You have a lot of charisms that you are setting up, so I would just make sure that your bishop knows about all of these. He may suggest that you focus on just one or two to start with (or not). Father Gambari does say that we need to prevent the excessive multiplication of institutes so every new charism needs to be evaluated carefully to see if they are useful or needed to the Church or if the Church is already being served in that area.



[quote] BTW--please pray we can get an appt with the bishop of Knoxville on December 28--Feast of the Holy Innocents. My mom is slowly dying of a brain tumor right now, and there's no telling what shape she'll be in by that time. I keep wondering if I will be burying her during our 2 week Christmas vacation. She is weakening, blind, and has to be fed, but she is still lucid. I spoke with her by phone two days ago. [/quote]

I will keep you in my prayers - but remember that the timing for all this work is God's, not ours, so if that date with the bishop doesn't work (and we will pray that it does), God will no doubt have other plans (and dates) for you!


We will all be praying for your Mom to have a gentle passing into the arms of Our Lord. Be kind to yourself too at this time. When my Dad died earlier this year, I didn't realize how it would affect me, since we had never been close, but it still made me cry. Parents are parents, after all. God keep you and bless you.

Edited October 29, 2009 by nunsense

[Gemma]

Yes, you are doing this very early in the process. Note all the questions she asked you.

I don't like getting tripped up like that, so I want to have at least some cognizance of what I'm doing before approaching anyone who's going to be asking a lot of questions.

Did you not check the affiliate proposed/emerging charism site? http://cloisters.tripod.com/conf/ If I didn't explain myself clearly, please let me know.

The cloistered charisms may end up just being eremitical charisms, and that's okay. If a community gathers around the hermit, that's great. If not, then the charism is being lived. I'm fine with either way.

The "conf" site will explain what we're doing where extinct charisms are concerned--asking relevant parties to recognize the extinct expression and invite renewal.

Five of the proposed active charisms were blended into one. You see the oppression of the Aboriginals down there. The Roma (Gypsies) have it even worse. People are looking to the Church for guidance on green matters and animal care.

All of the charisms are a result of necessity. One child in every 160 is diagnosed with autism, but nobody is prepared to deal with that. I was asked by our local autism diagnostic center about autistic spirituality, since I'm Aspergers, and foundress of a community of hermits-in-diaspora. Families are moving to NC for the autism services before they even find jobs here. The autism center is in Carrboro, which is the neighboring diocese.

The reason we have a healthcare crisis here in the States could probably be directly proportional to the number of hospitals and clinics that were closed after all the nuns left their convents. Now we've got Obamacare on the horizon, and nothing is looking good. Nursing sisters to visit the sick in their homes are needed, until hospitals can be either built or reopened. Mother Cabrini's Columbus Hospital in Chicago is no more--they tore it down completely, and discovered the saint's relics when they did so. There are two religious hospitals in St. Louis standing empty--one can accommodate up to 500 beds. The other--I think its prioprietary order is no longer in existence and "The Infirmary" can be found on the blog "Ecology of Absence".

Has anyone ever given any thought as to how many convents could potentially be suppressed in the wake of the Apostolic Visitation? Many communities lack orthodoxy, and discerners are coming to Cloister Outreach for help. As are those over age 30 who are being turned away from established orders. Ecclesia Dei Traditional Catholics have nowhere to go for vocations. Two cloistered monasteries in the US, and no active opportunities.

I'd say there's need, and it's not all in my diocese. The yahoo discernment groups for some of the "emerging" charisms still have to decide where they're going to be founded. I'm not doing this as an individual, which is what everyone is trying to pin it as--I'm coordinator of Cloister Outreach and I'm doing just that--coordinating efforts. I started the Cloister Outreach website of my own initiative. The projects are coming from the needs being presented to us.

Blessings,
Gemma

[GraceUk]

Hi Gemma, Could you please explain the term 'Ecclesia Dei Traditional Catholics.' Not sure what that means.

I was sorry to hear about your Mum. I will say a prayer for her.

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='Gemma' date='30 October 2009 - 12:37 AM' timestamp='1256823461' post='1993286']
Yes, you are doing this very early in the process. Note all the questions she asked you.

I don't like getting tripped up like that, so I want to have at least some cognizance of what I'm doing before approaching anyone who's going to be asking a lot of questions.

Did you not check the affiliate proposed/emerging charism site? http://cloisters.tripod.com/conf/ If I didn't explain myself clearly, please let me know.

The cloistered charisms may end up just being eremitical charisms, and that's okay. If a community gathers around the hermit, that's great. If not, then the charism is being lived. I'm fine with either way.

The "conf" site will explain what we're doing where extinct charisms are concerned--asking relevant parties to recognize the extinct expression and invite renewal.

Five of the proposed active charisms were blended into one. You see the oppression of the Aboriginals down there. The Roma (Gypsies) have it even worse. People are looking to the Church for guidance on green matters and animal care.

All of the charisms are a result of necessity. One child in every 160 is diagnosed with autism, but nobody is prepared to deal with that. I was asked by our local autism diagnostic center about autistic spirituality, since I'm Aspergers, and foundress of a community of hermits-in-diaspora. Families are moving to NC for the autism services before they even find jobs here. The autism center is in Carrboro, which is the neighboring diocese.

The reason we have a healthcare crisis here in the States could probably be directly proportional to the number of hospitals and clinics that were closed after all the nuns left their convents. Now we've got Obamacare on the horizon, and nothing is looking good. Nursing sisters to visit the sick in their homes are needed, until hospitals can be either built or reopened. Mother Cabrini's Columbus Hospital in Chicago is no more--they tore it down completely, and discovered the saint's relics when they did so. There are two religious hospitals in St. Louis standing empty--one can accommodate up to 500 beds. The other--I think its prioprietary order is no longer in existence and "The Infirmary" can be found on the blog "Ecology of Absence".

Has anyone ever given any thought as to how many convents could potentially be suppressed in the wake of the Apostolic Visitation? Many communities lack orthodoxy, and discerners are coming to Cloister Outreach for help. As are those over age 30 who are being turned away from established orders. Ecclesia Dei Traditional Catholics have nowhere to go for vocations. Two cloistered monasteries in the US, and no active opportunities.

I'd say there's need, and it's not all in my diocese. The yahoo discernment groups for some of the "emerging" charisms still have to decide where they're going to be founded. I'm not doing this as an individual, which is what everyone is trying to pin it as--I'm coordinator of Cloister Outreach and I'm doing just that--coordinating efforts. I started the Cloister Outreach website of my own initiative. The projects are coming from the needs being presented to us.

Blessings,
Gemma
[/quote]


Gemma - if I keep responding to all of your posts, then it is going to appear as if I am either attacking you or persecuting you, and I am certainly not trying to do either, but to clarify things. If at any time you feel that this is too personal, please say so, and we can take it offline from here. I think we are still being relevant to the emerging charisms thread that you started, but I don't want to wander too far off track or get too personal, so let me know please.

I do wonder if you are trying to take on more than you can actually handle all at once. My nephew has Aspergers and I see him do this and then get overwhelmed, but of course I don't know you personally or what you can handle. I only mention it because you have brought up your disability on several occasions.

You ask has "anyone ever given any thought..." and I just want to reassure you that you are not the only person out there who has given these things a lot of thought - including our Shepherds, the bishops!! That is why I say to check in with them first. And so what if I get asked a lot of questions when I go to my bishop or VR -- that will make me think. I don't consider it "getting tripped up" because I don't see my relationship with them as being antagonistic, but as collaborative. And, I don't have to have all the answers if this is God's work. And if it isn't, well, we know we don't want to turn into social workers, do we? This is either about religious life or it is not, and the world isn't going to be saved by our efforts, but by the grace of God. Even Pope John XXIII was alleged to have said "It's Your Church,Lord. I'm going to bed."

So maybe focusing on just one charism and getting that community up and running before taking on so many other ones would make your work seem more valid. It does appear to be very scattered and half thought out. A case in point for me is the Australian aboriginal charism that you told me about - this is a charism that sounds so good from a social justice point of view, but do you really have an understanding of aboriginal issues and what is already in place here? Have you even been to Australia? Is the community going to move to Australia to actually work physically with the aboriginal people? If so, do you understand about the visa structure here? Do you know what the government is working on in the indigenous area, or the Church, or other organizations? Yes, much work is needed, but once again, it is a matter of collaborative effort. Have you written to the Cardinal to discuss this? It might be a source of embarrassment for him to find out that a website exists promoting a new religious community to help the aboriginal people, based on Blessed Mary McKillop's inspiration and he knows nothing about it. And according to the website, the Mass will be Ecclesia Dei -- are you planning on bringing your own priests for this? If not, where are you going to find the priests to do this? I went to an EF Mass today and there were four people in attendance, including me. What I am trying to say, in as nice a way as possible, is that you need to do your research and make your contacts with those in authority before you just set up a website announcing a new religious community - IF you want to be responsible. I truly don't mean to sound harsh or condemning, and if I do, then I won't post any more, because I don't want to hurt anyone here. I just think it is not in the best interests of the Church or the faithful for anyone to start announcing new charisms and communities via websites without at least doing all of the homework and getting all the permissions first. And by homework, I don't mean what color the habit is going to be or what saint will be the patron. That is icing on the cake. I mean the flour and eggs of meeting with the VR and the bishop and asking what they think. And if they ask one to pray about it for awhile, then to do that. Father Cantalamessa (Vicar to the Papal household) said that when he told his superior he felt he should leave teaching and become a preacher, he was told to pray about it for a year! So he did.

Anyway, I have gone on way too much on this whole thread I am sure. But if someone like me, who loves the Church, loves religious life, and loves you too Gemma, should be so confused and concerned about the whole multiple charisms thing, then maybe ... what? I don't know. You are a great source of information for discerners, and I think we all thank you for that, but I just wonder why you, as foundress, don't try to get at least one community viable before "creating" so many more?? My humblest apologies for any offence here because none is meant.

[HisChild]

[quote name='Gemma' date='29 October 2009 - 06:37 AM' timestamp='1256823461' post='1993286']
Yes, you are doing this very early in the process. Note all the questions she asked you.

I don't like getting tripped up like that, so I want to have at least some cognizance of what I'm doing before approaching anyone who's going to be asking a lot of questions.


Has anyone ever given any thought as to how many convents could potentially be suppressed in the wake of the Apostolic Visitation? Many communities lack orthodoxy, and discerners are coming to Cloister Outreach for help. As are those over age 30 who are being turned away from established orders. Ecclesia Dei Traditional Catholics have nowhere to go for vocations. Two cloistered monasteries in the US, and no active opportunities.

Blessings,
Gemma
[/quote]

I only quoted part of your response, Gemma, to respond to some of your post, and in a roundabout way, Nunsense's as well.

First, I was always under the belief to, yes, go to the Ordinary (Bishop or Vicar of Religious) in the beginning but to have much of your vision on paper. In this way, one could answer questions (ie: like those that were posed to Nunsense), even if that vision was not being lived. The bishop cannot approve, or have something to start with, if he's not really apprised of what you hope to do. And he might not be as willing to take you seriously the second go-round if at the first meeting all you say is pretty extreme generalities (not that you did, Nunsense, since I don't have the full conversation in front of me, I'm just writing in generalities now).

It's a good way to 'compromise' for lack of a better word, by being obedient but still be well informed. One could even be living the horarium as well... just not living the life as a full religious. I know I'm starting to live my own horarium when I can (I still work 40 hrs a week). I mean, think about it, if I were going to tell others that I feel I have this calling to answer this great need in the world by this apostolate and this prayer life, unless a discerner is more informed than that general information, she won't really want to decide to enter/join unless she feels she's more equipped informationally (I know that's not a word, but I just made it one!). Even if not lived, you should still have a clear idea of the vision of that religious life, even before you live it, and before you ask approval. And yes, I'm allowing it to be obvious that once fully immersed into this new vision it might become incredibly necessary to alter some aspects.

As far as the visitation... I'm not sure anything will 'come of' those convents that are not being loyal to the Magesterium. IF it happens that the sisters who are way out in left field are disciplined in any way, and then told to either shape up or ship out, it would probably take many months or even years, to culminate into something more definitive, but I don't think they'd be tossed out on the streets. If nothing else, and it really came down to excommunication, they'd probably buy the convents from the Church and remain where they are, sisters but in some other religion or what have you. These sisters have been so for a long time and won't just disband and live solitary, secular lives. Maybe some would, but I doubt that most would. Some who have good jobs to support themselves might, but others? Probably not.

And then to answer GraceUK, Ecclesia Dei as Gemma describes it is for those who wish to maintain the EF Latin Mass instead of Holy Mass in the vernacular.

Gemma, I still haven't had the opportunity to read your site. Maybe this weekend I'll slow down enough to do so.

Have a blessed Thursday!

HisChild.

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='HisChild' date='30 October 2009 - 01:38 AM' timestamp='1256827125' post='1993315']
I only quoted part of your response, Gemma, to respond to some of your post, and in a roundabout way, Nunsense's as well.

First, I was always under the belief to, yes, go to the Ordinary (Bishop or Vicar of Religious) in the beginning but to have much of your vision on paper. In this way, one could answer questions (ie: like those that were posed to Nunsense), even if that vision was not being lived. The bishop cannot approve, or have something to start with, if he's not really apprised of what you hope to do. And he might not be as willing to take you seriously the second go-round if at the first meeting all you say is pretty extreme generalities (not that you did, Nunsense, since I don't have the full conversation in front of me, I'm just writing in generalities now).

It's a good way to 'compromise' for lack of a better word, by being obedient but still be well informed. One could even be living the horarium as well... just not living the life as a full religious. I know I'm starting to live my own horarium when I can (I still work 40 hrs a week). I mean, think about it, if I were going to tell others that I feel I have this calling to answer this great need in the world by this apostolate and this prayer life, unless a discerner is more informed than that general information, she won't really want to decide to enter/join unless she feels she's more equipped informationally (I know that's not a word, but I just made it one!). Even if not lived, you should still have a clear idea of the vision of that religious life, even before you live it, and before you ask approval. And yes, I'm allowing it to be obvious that once fully immersed into this new vision it might become incredibly necessary to alter some aspects.

As far as the visitation... I'm not sure anything will 'come of' those convents that are not being loyal to the Magesterium. IF it happens that the sisters who are way out in left field are disciplined in any way, and then told to either shape up or ship out, it would probably take many months or even years, to culminate into something more definitive, but I don't think they'd be tossed out on the streets. If nothing else, and it really came down to excommunication, they'd probably buy the convents from the Church and remain where they are, sisters but in some other religion or what have you. These sisters have been so for a long time and won't just disband and live solitary, secular lives. Maybe some would, but I doubt that most would. Some who have good jobs to support themselves might, but others? Probably not.

And then to answer GraceUK, Ecclesia Dei as Gemma describes it is for those who wish to maintain the EF Latin Mass instead of Holy Mass in the vernacular.

Gemma, I still haven't had the opportunity to read your site. Maybe this weekend I'll slow down enough to do so.

Have a blessed Thursday!

HisChild.
[/quote]


I like your point about living the life already, and I totally agree with that! I have tried to continue the life of a Carmelite as much as possible, praying the Office and doing meditation. I have had to make changes in the horarium as required because one day I might have a job interview or some other appointment, but this happens in the convent as well, when one has to go to the doctor or is "taken" for something. In these cases, we would "take back" the Office, meaning that we would recite it by ourselves later. I do a similar thing. If I am not able to recite it at the set time, then I try to read it on the tram or in a church, or wherever I have to be. I have tried to go to daily evening Mass at a church in the city because they follow it with Evening Prayer, and I like to pray this with their community of priests, but today I went to Mass in a suburb because it is an EF Mass and I wanted to visit their church before I meet with their priest next week (he may be my new spiritual director). I did love the EF despite there only being four of us there! so I think I will go there in the mornings and attend evening prayer in the city - I will have to change my horarium to accommodate that. So the schedule is still a little flexible, but as long as I am trying to live the life of a Carmelite nun, then I know that once things settle down, I will be able to do it even better!

As for writing things down on paper. This is the ideal thing to do, and I have started on the Rule (St Albert) and the Constitutions (probably a modified version of St Teresa's 1851 but I am not sure yet) but I also want to be open to what the needs of the diocese are, and I think it will be better for me if I don't go into my meeting with the bishop having all the answers or being too rigid. Anyway, the point I was trying to make is not to wait until everything is perfect.

I, too, don't think that all of the religious sisters are going to start running out of their convents. In fact, some of them hardly listen to what the Vatican tells them now! We do need to pray for them all. You made some good points.

[Gemma]

[quote name='GraceUk' date='29 October 2009 - 10:59 AM' timestamp='1256824778' post='1993292']
Hi Gemma, Could you please explain the term 'Ecclesia Dei Traditional Catholics.' Not sure what that means.

I was sorry to hear about your Mum. I will say a prayer for her.
[/quote]

Those who attend--and adhere to--the Extraordinary Form of the Latin Mass. Also known as the Traditional Latin Mass. Our "Ecclesia Dei Vocations" yahoo group has close to 80 members--if that tells you anything about vocational interest in the subject.

Thanks for the prayers.

Blessings,
Gemma

[Gemma]

[quote name='nunsense' date='29 October 2009 - 11:31 AM' timestamp='1256826664' post='1993310']
Gemma - if I keep responding to all of your posts, then it is going to appear as if I am either attacking you or persecuting you, and I am certainly not trying to do either, but to clarify things. If at any time you feel that this is too personal, please say so, and we can take it offline from here. I think we are still being relevant to the emerging charisms thread that you started, but I don't want to wander too far off track or get too personal, so let me know please.

I do wonder if you are trying to take on more than you can actually handle all at once. My nephew has Aspergers and I see him do this and then get overwhelmed, but of course I don't know you personally or what you can handle. I only mention it because you have brought up your disability on several occasions.

You ask has "anyone ever given any thought..." and I just want to reassure you that you are not the only person out there who has given these things a lot of thought - including our Shepherds, the bishops!! That is why I say to check in with them first. And so what if I get asked a lot of questions when I go to my bishop or VR -- that will make me think. I don't consider it "getting tripped up" because I don't see my relationship with them as being antagonistic, but as collaborative. And, I don't have to have all the answers if this is God's work. And if it isn't, well, we know we don't want to turn into social workers, do we? This is either about religious life or it is not, and the world isn't going to be saved by our efforts, but by the grace of God. Even Pope John XXIII was alleged to have said "It's Your Church,Lord. I'm going to bed."

So maybe focusing on just one charism and getting that community up and running before taking on so many other ones would make your work seem more valid. It does appear to be very scattered and half thought out. A case in point for me is the Australian aboriginal charism that you told me about - this is a charism that sounds so good from a social justice point of view, but do you really have an understanding of aboriginal issues and what is already in place here? Have you even been to Australia? Is the community going to move to Australia to actually work physically with the aboriginal people? If so, do you understand about the visa structure here? Do you know what the government is working on in the indigenous area, or the Church, or other organizations? Yes, much work is needed, but once again, it is a matter of collaborative effort. Have you written to the Cardinal to discuss this? It might be a source of embarrassment for him to find out that a website exists promoting a new religious community to help the aboriginal people, based on Blessed Mary McKillop's inspiration and he knows nothing about it. And according to the website, the Mass will be Ecclesia Dei -- are you planning on bringing your own priests for this? If not, where are you going to find the priests to do this? I went to an EF Mass today and there were four people in attendance, including me. What I am trying to say, in as nice a way as possible, is that you need to do your research and make your contacts with those in authority before you just set up a website announcing a new religious community - IF you want to be responsible. I truly don't mean to sound harsh or condemning, and if I do, then I won't post any more, because I don't want to hurt anyone here. I just think it is not in the best interests of the Church or the faithful for anyone to start announcing new charisms and communities via websites without at least doing all of the homework and getting all the permissions first. And by homework, I don't mean what color the habit is going to be or what saint will be the patron. That is icing on the cake. I mean the flour and eggs of meeting with the VR and the bishop and asking what they think. And if they ask one to pray about it for awhile, then to do that. Father Cantalamessa (Vicar to the Papal household) said that when he told his superior he felt he should leave teaching and become a preacher, he was told to pray about it for a year! So he did.

Anyway, I have gone on way too much on this whole thread I am sure. But if someone like me, who loves the Church, loves religious life, and loves you too Gemma, should be so confused and concerned about the whole multiple charisms thing, then maybe ... what? I don't know. You are a great source of information for discerners, and I think we all thank you for that, but I just wonder why you, as foundress, don't try to get at least one community viable before "creating" so many more?? My humblest apologies for any offence here because none is meant.
[/quote]

Blessed John XXIII is pretty cool, isn't he? I like that quote. Perhaps the Newman Center at UT-Knoxville, which is named for him, could alter it slightly and post it on a wall.

The proposed community for Australia has been folded into what is now the Franciscan Ecology Sisters of Blessed Kateri Tekakwitha for the Fourth World. They're nowhere near close to going to Australia, and they may never get there. Only God knows. Right now, they're working on getting the charism statement together. I left the MacKillop site up just in case someone was looking for it. I guess I should go unpublish it and the others that were folded into that charism. I'm about to fold two more--the St Max good health and St Joan charisms--into the Kateri one.

As for "taking on too much," I am a former professional secretary for a quasi-federal agency, and a certified American Red Cross disaster worker. My jobs in the first agency mentioned included the Citizen Action Office; the Industrial Development staff; Personnel Security; and Community Resource Development. It was the last office that taught me the most, and the more relevant, information that I needed to do this job at Cloister Outreach, and making the foundations. The disaster worker training taught me other stuff, too. I was raised in retail sales, and "getting busy" was part of life. Idleness is the enemy of the soul. I also homeschooled for four years, and that requires planning, prayer, and creativity.

When I said "tripped up," I wasn't saying that the situation was insidious. It's like HisChild said, a "compromise" to have stuff written down. The bishop I talked to told me point blank, and these are his exact words, "I have to know what I'm approving."

As for the "not thought out"--that's deliberate. I'm giving the prompt, the aspirants are writing the story, so to say. Karen has become more independent the further she has gotten into this project, and one of these days, I will be a memory in their chronology. That's okay with me. My ego's not involved.

So, that being said, I don't know your nephew with Aspergers, but I'm sure he's smart, and he could carry out everything if he knew how to plan everything properly. Planning is a big issue for Aspies, and if someone showed him how to budget his time, he could very likely succeed in what he undertakes. I would also teach him that "the Holy Ghost works on attraction," and for him to plan for those events he felt most attracted to. God has helped me to devise a rotational plan for all the things that I'm doing.

No offenses, dear. I think the world is learning from this thread. Pax!

Blessings,
Gemma