Srs Of The Holy Innocents & St. Gianna Molla

[Saint Therese]

My only issue is that using the words [i]founded[/i] or [i]foundress[/i] may be misleading to some who might misunderstand that these possible future communities are in some way already approved or already founded, when in fact they're not. I still think this needs clarification, but I"m not attacking anyone on here. I think it adirable for anyone to have so much zeal for vocations and promoting vocations.

Edited October 28, 2009 by Saint Therese

[alleros]

Exactly so, for the first part.

The web site is very misleading; and there are so many hungry ones out there that this is spiritually dangerous. This also is how cults begin; and I am very serious on that.

The quality most needed in religious life is humility; in praying and working in prayer and in silence.

And in, most of all, living the real life of a religious before embarking on anything else.

Reading some of the threads here, that utter need becomes more and more urgent and telling.

For a lay person, who cannot live as a religious herself, no matter what she has read, to speak like this?

It is simply not realistic.

Many have deep unease and that unease is well founded.

And we are left with the feeling - and the way Gemma misinterpretes questions as hostility is clear proof of her lack of awareness of religious life - that all is not right here. That there are very human forces here and ambitions and that this is not the work of the Holy Spirit

But maybe very well meaning human thinking and ambition.

These things should be hidden and silent, not vaunted on the internet like this. It is an inner working, not outward to the world.

And that is not hostility; it is wisdom.

In religious life we see what the world sees as criticism very differently; we call it "correction" and it is the humility and joy it gives that is a pivot of religious life.

But how could Gemma know this? Or any lay person?

We pass our wsdom and tradition on from within the long years of our formation and our giving as religious, not from any theories.

And no number of visits to an Order etc will give the wisdom and experience needed to found an order.

That is the simple and devastating truth.

We would urge Gemma to ponder these things. But we know that this is unlikely so we simply question . And we advise accordingly.

She knows not whereof she speaks.



[quote name='Saint Therese' date='27 October 2009 - 09:18 PM' timestamp='1256696324' post='1992497']
My only issue is that using the words [i]founded[/i] or [i]foundress[/i] may be misleading to some who might misunderstand that these possible future communities are in some way already approved or already founded, when in fact they're not. I still think this needs clarification, but I"m not attacking anyone on here. [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif[/img] I think it adirable for anyone to have so much zeal for vocations and promoting vocations. [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif[/img]
[/quote]

[BarbTherese]

[quote]Quoting Alleros: http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=99908&view=findpost&p=1992597
In religious life we see what the world sees as criticism very differently; we call it "correction" and it is the humility and joy it gives that is a pivot of religious life.

But how could Gemma know this? Or any lay person?[/quote]

With all due respect.....lay people also are under the inspiration of The Holy Spirit who can and does communicate the wisdom of constructive criticisms and corrections - and the absolutely welcomed humility and joy that any sort of criticism or correction can engender and bestow..........and also of the spiritual benefit of humiliations bringing joy also. These are not confined to religious with lay people excluded. These belong to the life of virtue and are gifts of The Holy Spirit open to all.

Barb

Edited October 28, 2009 by BarbaraTherese

[organwerke]

Alleros I don't agree with all you say: I think that it is quite evident you have a bad opinion of this reality.
Questions are all allowed and welcome, in my opinion, but isn't the same for negative criticism and irony such as for example "wishful thinking, ideas and....... moonshine."
If humility is so important, you too should be a little more, also in your judgements.
I've no particular reasons to promote this charism, nor it is my intention...but I can say that as "exthernal observer" I have noticed sometimes harshness in this thread.
I'd only like that this will stop, that's all, but of course it is really a good thing that clarifying questions will continue.

[InHisLove726]

It is not our place to question what the Holy Spirit has or has not inspired. I believe it's all good to ask questions and want clarification (Gemma has encouraged this as well). I was taught as a child that "If you can't say something nice, say nothing at all." Pray to understand and respect the Holy Spirit's movement within individuals and communities.

I will say this--

Of all the founder/foundress stories I've heard, not one of them was free of enduring hostility and objection towards their mission, but they pressed on and their orders are alive and well today. I pray that if the Holy Spirit is guiding these people to create new charisms/orders, then God's will be done.

Edited October 28, 2009 by InHisLove726

[tnavarro61]

[quote name='Saint Therese' date='28 October 2009 - 11:18 AM' timestamp='1256696324' post='1992497']
My only issue is that using the words [i]founded[/i] or [i]foundress[/i] may be misleading to some who might misunderstand that these possible future communities are in some way already approved or already founded, when in fact they're not. I still think this needs clarification, but I"m not attacking anyone on here. I think it admirable for anyone to have so much zeal for vocations and promoting vocations.
[/quote]

I admire Gemma, too for her zeal for vocations, especially for the cloistered vocations. God will reward you for your efforts of telling the world the beauties of the cloister. How I wish that everybody would have the same zeal, since many think of cloister as a way of running away from their problems, or as eerie as Halloween movies.

The question about "founded" and "foundress" needs to be answered, and is still not clear for me either. I asked this one before, and Gemma once said that the a woman is already a foundress at the moment of the conception of ideas. It is not clear still for me.

Lay persons can be inspired to found an congregation. We cannot question how the Spirit moves (if we would list His movements, it would take us eternity), but I believe that experience is important. I feel (just a feeling which might be wrong or right) that a founder must have an experience of religious life first before doing invitations. I think it would be unfair for her followers if they wouldn't have the feeling of being in a community. I have nothing against Gemma, so my questions and personal thoughts are not against her, her spirituality, how the Holy Spirit moves her, her inspirations, etc. Maybe it's the Holy Spirit that puts these questions so that everything would be crystal clear.

[Gemma]

[quote name='Saint Therese' date='27 October 2009 - 11:18 PM' timestamp='1256696324' post='1992497']
My only issue is that using the words [i]founded[/i] or [i]foundress[/i] may be misleading to some who might misunderstand that these possible future communities are in some way already approved or already founded, when in fact they're not. I still think this needs clarification, but I"m not attacking anyone on here. I think it adirable for anyone to have so much zeal for vocations and promoting vocations.
[/quote]

The main site was restructured: http://cloisters.tripod.com/

There should not be any confusion because the pages are different now. The proposed/emerging charisms are now on this site: http://cloisters.tripod.com/conf/

I am in the process of developing a site dedicated to emerging charisms, which will also have founder information on it.

If someone starts something, they are called the founder of the initiative. What we have written are first drafts of proposals. The more aspirants--who follow the Holy Ghost's attractions--the more documentation going into the proposal which is going to the bishop. But the bishop will want to know if the proposal has been lived, if the work has been performed, and if the aspirants have grown spiritually from the experience. Then he gives a letter outlining what they can do, and what they can wear.

Blessings,
Gemma

[AccountDeleted]

This is obviously a topic that generates heated feelings, which can be an indication of zeal for the Lord, a good thing! But we do need to give everyone the benefit of the doubt here, no matter which side of the debate they take! As with any issue, there is "more than one way to skin a cat", so we all need to be open to the fact that there isn't just one, set way of seeing or doing something as radical as starting a new religious community and that we are not all going to agree 100% with each other on every aspect of this topic.

For example, Rosalind Moss is already well known as a "foundress" of a new religious community despite the fact that at present she has no "sisters" involved other than herself, and she is still undergoing her own religious formation as a novice doing a canonical year. She has been calling herself "Sister Rosalind" but since she has no "community" to speak of right now, and no prior experience in religious life, one could argue that she has no right to be called either Sister or Foundress. What she does have however, is permission from her Archbishop to do both of these things, and to recruit for vocations. Before she ever went to St Louis, she had exchanged letters with Archbishop Burke, and received not only permission to start her new community there but his personal invitation to do so. She also has the support of her local parish community and her parish priest, and a host of willing volunteers and benefactors from across the country wanting to help her. So a discerner can know that they will be joining a community that has every chance of growing and thriving, and not one that will shut down in the near future (which is statistically the reality - most new communities last five years or less).

I have heard it suggested that one should follow a particular, set pattern in order to start a new religious community, and I have even read the highly recommended book by Father Gambari on this topic, but as we all know, charisms are a gift from the Holy Spirit, and I doubt that any two communities will emerge in exactly the same way. The steps I have heard quoted include getting four people involved [u]before [/u]approaching the Archbishop, and promoting the community (online via website and in other ways) before even getting approval. The logic behind this is to present the Bishop with an established and strong community that has been through (possibly) the stages of private association or the faithful, public association of the faithful and then (possibly) religious institute.

This may or may not be the right way for some to take, but I know that personally, I would be hesitant to join any community that wasn't already on their Archbishop's radar screen. And I think that some of the concerns about new communities setting up websites and recruiting, is that they might confuse or mislead young discerners who don't really understand that the community is working without formal permission or approval, but is working towards this recognition in the future. Hopefully, parents will be involved in their child's discernment, but even they may not be aware of the actual status of the new community unless this is made abundantly clear on any website or hand-outs. That is why some posters here are reacting so strongly to some of the new communities, and this is understandable. It is just a sign of protectiveness for potential discerners - a good thing - and no reason for anyone to take offence.

Ok, let me tell you the embarassing stuff now, so that I can explain why this is all so personal for me. Ever since I returned to Australia, after being asked to leave Carmel, I have had a strong feeling that God is asking me to start a new, very traditional, religious community, as a sort of counter-balance to all of the very liberal communities that currently exist here. Hear me out before you jump to conclusions though - ok? I know all the "rebound" theories already.

So, in starting this community, I have even been referring to myself as "Sister" and "Foundress" because that it what I have seen others do, and I even thought that it would be very motivating for me to think of myself as a religious sister and a foundress, living the life on my own while waiting for permissions. I still think of myself as a nun anyway, but the fact is that I am not. So, recently I changed spiritual directors (from a very liberal religious sister to a very traditional priest), and my new SD has advised me not to use any titles without permission. He is worried that it will confuse the faithful who might assume that I already have the approval and permission from our Archbishop to start the community. And unlike Rosalind, I do not have this permission yet, so I immediately responded to my SD and agreed that I would not use either title, or even promote the community until my meeting with the Archbishop.

I did meet with the Vicar for Religious about three weeks ago, and she asked me to wait before setting up an appointment with the Archbishop because she wanted to consult with a canon laywer about what my next steps should be (going into a Novitiate with another community, starting to recruit etc). She is not interested in the Gambari book or the advice of other people because she knows that each situation is unique, so she and the canon lawyer are going to work out a plan before we take it to the Archbishop for his permission to start. So now most things for me are being done in a "hidden" mode, like a seed growing underground. If and when the Lord is ready to move on this, then I will be more prepared, having spent this time in deepening my prayer life and my relationship with Our Lord. When all the focus goes on the externals, then the interior life suffers. I also know that there is every possibility that this is [u]not [/u]the working of the Holy Spirit at all, but just my own personal needs or desires. The evil one doesn't use evil to seduce those who love the Lord, he wraps up his temptations in the appearance of good, playing on our self-love and self-will to cause chaos and confusion. That is a really good reason, in my mind, for a person to be able to accept any criticisms, suggestions, recommendations etc, with as much openness and humility as possible. At least, we should consider what is being said, and perhaps take it to one's SD for their opinion. If, in the end, it turns out that this really isn't what God is asking of me, then I want to be in a place in my heart to accept this and embrace it, and to pray for more guidance. No one should "give up" just because of a little resistance but no one should be pushing their own agenda either. If it isn't God's work, then it isn't worth doing.

A lot of waffling, but what am I trying to say here? Well, I guess we need to listen to each other, love each other, and accept that we wouldn't be here on this phorum unless we all loved the Lord and wanted to serve Him. but we won't all see things the same way. Those who are trying to start new communities need to listen to the warnings or criticisms of those who see problems. And those who are pointing out the problems, need to do so in a spirit of charity rather than being judgmental. We're all on the same team here, right?

[tnavarro61]

nunsense - one word: incredible.. okay two words.. incredible and marvelous! I finished reading it because it makes a lot of sense!

You made many great points and I advise everybody to read nunsense's post.

God bless you nunsense!

Edited October 28, 2009 by tnavarro61

[InHisLove726]

[quote name='nunsense' date='28 October 2009 - 08:30 AM' timestamp='1256733012' post='1992649']
This is obviously a topic that generates heated feelings, which can be an indication of zeal for the Lord, a good thing! But we do need to give everyone the benefit of the doubt here, no matter which side of the debate they take! As with any issue, there is "more than one way to skin a cat", so we all need to be open to the fact that there isn't just one, set way of seeing or doing something as radical as starting a new religious community and that we are not all going to agree 100% with each other on every aspect of this topic.

For example, Rosalind Moss is already well known as a "foundress" of a new religious community despite the fact that at present she has no "sisters" involved other than herself, and she is still undergoing her own religious formation as a novice doing a canonical year. She has been calling herself "Sister Rosalind" but since she has no "community" to speak of right now, and no prior experience in religious life, one could argue that she has no right to be called either Sister or Foundress. What she does have however, is permission from her Archbishop to do both of these things, and to recruit for vocations. Before she ever went to St Louis, she had exchanged letters with Archbishop Burke, and received not only permission to start her new community there but his personal invitation to do so. She also has the support of her local parish community and her parish priest, and a host of willing volunteers and benefactors from across the country wanting to help her. So a discerner can know that they will be joining a community that has every chance of growing and thriving, and not one that will shut down in the near future (which is statistically the reality - most new communities last five years or less).

I have heard it suggested that one should follow a particular, set pattern in order to start a new religious community, and I have even read the highly recommended book by Father Gambari on this topic, but as we all know, charisms are a gift from the Holy Spirit, and I doubt that any two communities will emerge in exactly the same way. The steps I have heard quoted include getting four people involved [u]before [/u]approaching the Archbishop, and promoting the community (online via website and in other ways) before even getting approval. The logic behind this is to present the Bishop with an established and strong community that has been through (possibly) the stages of private association or the faithful, public association of the faithful and then (possibly) religious institute.

This may or may not be the right way for some to take, but I know that personally, I would be hesitant to join any community that wasn't already on their Archbishop's radar screen. And I think that some of the concerns about new communities setting up websites and recruiting, is that they might confuse or mislead young discerners who don't really understand that the community is working without formal permission or approval, but is working towards this recognition in the future. Hopefully, parents will be involved in their child's discernment, but even they may not be aware of the actual status of the new community unless this is made abundantly clear on any website or hand-outs. That is why some posters here are reacting so strongly to some of the new communities, and this is understandable. It is just a sign of protectiveness for potential discerners - a good thing - and no reason for anyone to take offence.

Ok, let me tell you the embarassing stuff now, so that I can explain why this is all so personal for me. Ever since I returned to Australia, after being asked to leave Carmel, I have had a strong feeling that God is asking me to start a new, very traditional, religious community, as a sort of counter-balance to all of the very liberal communities that currently exist here. Hear me out before you jump to conclusions though - ok? I know all the "rebound" theories already.

So, in starting this community, I have even been referring to myself as "Sister" and "Foundress" because that it what I have seen others do, and I even thought that it would be very motivating for me to think of myself as a religious sister and a foundress, living the life on my own while waiting for permissions. I still think of myself as a nun anyway, but the fact is that I am not. So, recently I changed spiritual directors (from a very liberal religious sister to a very traditional priest), and my new SD has advised me not to use any titles without permission. He is worried that it will confuse the faithful who might assume that I already have the approval and permission from our Archbishop to start the community. And unlike Rosalind, I do not have this permission yet, so I immediately responded to my SD and agreed that I would not use either title, or even promote the community until my meeting with the Archbishop.

I did meet with the Vicar for Religious about three weeks ago, and she asked me to wait before setting up an appointment with the Archbishop because she wanted to consult with a canon laywer about what my next steps should be (going into a Novitiate with another community, starting to recruit etc). She is not interested in the Gambari book or the advice of other people because she knows that each situation is unique, so she and the canon lawyer are going to work out a plan before we take it to the Archbishop for his permission to start. So now most things for me are being done in a "hidden" mode, like a seed growing underground. If and when the Lord is ready to move on this, then I will be more prepared, having spent this time in deepening my prayer life and my relationship with Our Lord. When all the focus goes on the externals, then the interior life suffers. I also know that there is every possibility that this is [u]not [/u]the working of the Holy Spirit at all, but just my own personal needs or desires. The evil one doesn't use evil to seduce those who love the Lord, he wraps up his temptations in the appearance of good, playing on our self-love and self-will to cause chaos and confusion. That is a really good reason, in my mind, for a person to be able to accept any criticisms, suggestions, recommendations etc, with as much openness and humility as possible. At least, we should consider what is being said, and perhaps take it to one's SD for their opinion. If, in the end, it turns out that this really isn't what God is asking of me, then I want to be in a place in my heart to accept this and embrace it, and to pray for more guidance. No one should "give up" just because of a little resistance but no one should be pushing their own agenda either. If it isn't God's work, then it isn't worth doing.

A lot of waffling, but what am I trying to say here? Well, I guess we need to listen to each other, love each other, and accept that we wouldn't be here on this phorum unless we all loved the Lord and wanted to serve Him. but we won't all see things the same way. Those who are trying to start new communities need to listen to the warnings or criticisms of those who see problems. And those who are pointing out the problems, need to do so in a spirit of charity rather than being judgmental. We're all on the same team here, right?
[/quote]


[quote]Action failed: You have reached your quota of positive votes for the day[/quote]

I couldn't say it any better.

[organwerke]

[quote name='Gemma' date='28 October 2009 - 12:05 AM' timestamp='1256681116' post='1992329']
Thanks for your honesty--that you're not interested. [/quote]

Gemma, I spoke in general, as an example, I wasn't referring to me.
Well, if I'm not interested it is simply because I don't live in the US! (I live in the country of st. Gianna Molla!).
And, in addition, I'm not attracted to cloistered life! But I love it!
Near my city, for example, there is a Carmelite Monastery which is dedicated to the prayer pro-life: I find it is a beautiful idea!
I also have several friends who are volunteers in the Movement pro-life of my city.
But the main reason for I try to see your point of view is that I am a sort of member-associate of a religious reality that knew strong oppositions in its history, and still it has, sometimes, even if now it is fully approved and the founder is saint...
so, I can understand you, and, I can say, that it is very unpleasant!
Finally, I agree with In His Love, Nunsense, Saint Therese etc... of course everyone has his ideas, but respect and listen to the others is fundamental!

[Gemma]

Annie--if you check back in the archives of "founders and friends," you will see that what you've been told to do is the "Groundwork" for the charism which is what's done before starting work on the Seven Pillars.

The Seven Pillars is what Karen is working on, and that is the documentation that has to be presented to the bishop, but she's also still in the groundwork stage.

Fr. Gambari says that "there is no blueprint." I think that's what everyone is driving at here. I know from personal experience with the Cloisterites that I have to take baby steps--everything "distills." One emerging charism is told to do one thing, another, yet another path. That's the way it works, but the Groundwork and Seven Pillars offer some "stability". The Seven Pillars came from the canonist, although it was not titled such.

The church also considers you to be the promoter, and it's your responsibility to promote the charism once you reach that point--when you and your SD are ready. Watching the evolvement of the charism through a blog is a positive thing for other founders, but they have to remain flexible.

Bishops are supposed to be "nurturing fathers" according to canon 605. I suppose going to him with only a smattering on a page is considered something akin to telling one's husband that one is with child (please do not misconstrew that). But, "Nurturing father" is the Church's language, not mine. It was our hermit-canonist who said that a foundress is a foundress from the moment of "conception" and that we have a right to promote our charism. I repeat, this came from a canonist. The only way to know if the community is going to have a chance of growing is to notify the world that the charism exists, and let the Holy Ghost work on attraction. If souls are attracted to it, work together. If they aren't, adapt a "That's not for me" attitude, and go your way in peace.

No blueprint, yet there are common threads. Everyone, please keep this in mind. I'm almost willing to bet money that you will end up going the route laid out by Fr. Gambari's book, in spite of having rejected said publication, mainly because he used to work for the Congregation for Religious (the name is too long and I can never remember all of it) in Rome. Sr. Maria Michaele, OP, translated it and had it reproduced. It spells out the procedures that have to be gone through anyway. One founder in California said the book facilitated their process of foundation, and thanked me for referring him to the resource.

So, as always Annie, thanks for your insightful post. I pray all the "you can't do that" nonsense we've been hearing is put to rest. I was told by the people who prayed for the charisms 20 years ago--quite resoundingly--"Get a canonist." So I did. And she's talking to the bishop on our behalf. That's what's working for us. The other emerging charisms (our affiliates) don't have a home diocese yet, so we can't do that. They're still in the Groundwork/discernment stage. Everyone please understand this and give them the charity of prayer, which should not be "Make them go to an established community" but that "God's will is done in their lives."

Blessings,
Gemma

[Gemma]

[quote name='organwerke' date='28 October 2009 - 10:02 AM' timestamp='1256734971' post='1992668']
Gemma, I spoke in general, as an example, I wasn't referring to me.
Well, if I'm not interested it is simply because I don't live in the US! (I live in the country of st. Gianna Molla!).
And, in addition, I'm not attracted to cloistered life! But I love it!
Near my city, for example, there is a Carmelite Monastery which is dedicated to the prayer pro-life: I find it is a beautiful idea!
I also have several friends who are volunteers in the Movement pro-life of my city.
But the main reason for I try to see your point of view is that I am a sort of member-associate of a religious reality that knew strong oppositions in its history, and still it has, sometimes, even if now it is fully approved and the founder is saint...
so, I can understand you, and, I can say, that it is very unpleasant!
Finally, I agree with In His Love, Nunsense, Saint Therese etc... of course everyone has his ideas, but respect and listen to the others is fundamental!
[/quote]

Thanks for the clarification of "interest". I hope you saw the response I received from the saint's own daughter!

If you love the cloisters, then join us spiritually in our apostolate.

I think I know what "religious reality" you're talking about, but to avoid another tempest in a teapot, I will refrain from mentioning it's name.

Blessings,
Gemma

[Gemma]

[quote name='HisChild' date='27 October 2009 - 11:09 PM' timestamp='1256695749' post='1992492']
Gemma, I agree with Rosamundi in that I don't personally read in anyone's posts that they are against you or your work.

You know my personal thoughts about the Cloister Outreach site, which is not a reflection of my thoughts of your work itself. With so many founding communities on one site, it almost looks like you're founding them all, which can be a little confusing for discerners.

In addition, with so much information packed on one website, it can come across as too busy at best and might turn discerners away, who may not want to wade through all the information to find what they're looking for, which I know is not your intent.

I also agree with Rosamundi in that people are wont to ask questions if things are not clear to them. I know from my own reading of most of your site, I still have more questions than answers. So I know if I was feeling that way, others may too. In generosity, perhaps you might want to give posters here the benefit of the doubt and trust that they're asking questions because these things are not clear to them.
[/quote]

I hope that splitting the sites the way I have done is less confusing.

The "New Communities Consortium" is getting their own site, but it's still under construction.

"Hermits & Hermitages" will get their own site, too.

More questions than answers--in the case of an emerging charism that could actually facilitate the process.

Questions are good. It helps the founders clarify their purpose.

Blessings,
Gemma

[HisChild]

[quote name='Gemma' date='28 October 2009 - 07:05 AM' timestamp='1256738749' post='1992704']
I hope that splitting the sites the way I have done is less confusing.

The "New Communities Consortium" is getting their own site, but it's still under construction.

"Hermits & Hermitages" will get their own site, too.

More questions than answers--in the case of an emerging charism that could actually facilitate the process.

Questions are good. It helps the founders clarify their purpose.

Blessings,
Gemma
[/quote]


Wow, things got heated overnight! But thanks, Gemma, for clarifying. I'll be sure to look up the other site you named earlier.