Vincent Vega Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='27 October 2009 - 02:03 PM' timestamp='1256666629' post='1992145'] According to him, he started drinking at 4 and became an alcoholic around 10. [/quote] Give him a break...he [i]is[/i] Irish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortify Posted October 28, 2009 Author Share Posted October 28, 2009 [quote name='hot stuff' date='27 October 2009 - 09:41 PM' timestamp='1256694082' post='1992477'] The only place where it is taught definitively that the "end of times Antichrist is THE antichrist" is in protestant theologies (right along with the rapture) . Show me where this is taught definitively as Catholic doctrine and I'll be happy to agree. [/quote] If by "definitive" you mean dogma, no such dogma exists, but do you honestly believe the Fathers and Doctors of the Church were of the opinion that the Antichrist was Nero? Here is a quote from the Catholic Encyclopedia which may not entirely answer the question, but it does lead us in the right direction: [color="#0000FF"][b]"A second view admits that the Antichrist is a person, but it maintains that he is a person of the past; [u]Nero[/u], Diocletian, Julian, Caligula, Titus, Simon Magus, Simon the son of Giora, the High Priest Ananias, Vitellius, the Jews, the Pharisees, and the Jewish zealots have been variously identified with the Antichrist. [u]But there is little traditional authority for this opinion; besides, it does not appear to satisfy fully the prophetic predictions, and, in the case of some of its adherents, it is based on the supposition that the inspired writers could not transcend the limits of their experiences.[/u]"[/b][/color] http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01559a.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akalyte Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 common sense= which race would be the most "anti" "christ" most likely the same race which teamed up with the pagan romans to have him crucified. (the whore who rides the beast) would be the cheating woman(the jews who rejected Christ, and the beast, the pagan rom,an empire) my personal belief is that the anti-christ jews are still riding a beast (america). some may disagree but this is what ive come up with.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortify Posted October 28, 2009 Author Share Posted October 28, 2009 [quote name='Akalyte' date='27 October 2009 - 10:20 PM' timestamp='1256696435' post='1992499'] common sense= which race would be the most "anti" "christ" most likely the same race which teamed up with the pagan romans to have him crucified. (the whore who rides the beast) would be the cheating woman(the jews who rejected Christ, and the beast, the pagan rom,an empire) my personal belief is that the anti-christ jews are still riding a beast (america). some may disagree but this is what ive come up with.. [/quote] Jewish Conspiracy? Talk about politically incorrect! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akalyte Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 im not into conpsiracy theories i just put 2 and 2 together... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 (edited) [quote name='hot stuff' date='27 October 2009 - 09:41 PM' timestamp='1256694082' post='1992477'] The only place where it is taught definitively that the "end of times Antichrist is THE antichrist" is in protestant theologies (right along with the rapture) . Show me where this is taught definitively as Catholic doctrine and I'll be happy to agree. [/quote] Traditional Catholic teaching, which has always been taught is Catholic Doctrine. From the Church Fathers on the Church has taught the Antichrist, the Deceiver, the Man of Sin, the Son of Perdition is the one of the last days. Dare I say you would have accused many of the Church Fathers of heresy, as well as a great many of the Saints, and Bishops including Cardinal Newman. Who all definitively taught that the "end of times Antichrist is THE antichrist." "[T]he whole time of your faith will not profit you unless you are made complete in the last time. For in the last days false prophets and corrupters shall be multiplied, and sheep shall be turned into wolves . . . and then shall [b]the deceiver[/b] of the world appear, pretending to be the Son of God, and [he] shall do signs and wonders, and the earth shall be delivered into his hands" (Didache 16:3-4 [A.D. 70]). Irenaeus "By means of the events which shall occur in the time of the Antichrist it is shown that he, being an apostate and a robber, is anxious to be adored as God, and that although a mere slave, he wishes to be proclaimed as king. For he, being endued with all the power of the devil, shall not come as a righteous king nor as a legitimate king in subjection to God, but as an impious, unjust, and lawless one . . . setting aside idols to persuade [men] that he himself is God, raising himself up as the only idol. . . . Moreover [Paul] has also pointed out this which I have shown in many ways: that the temple in Jerusalem was made by the direction of the true God. For the apostle himself, speaking in his own person, distinctly called it the temple of God [2 Thess. 2:4] . . . in which the enemy shall sit, endeavoring to show himself as Christ" (Against Heresies 5:25:1-2 [A.D. 189]). [b]"Moreover, another danger, by no means trifling, shall overtake those who falsely presume that they know the name of [u]the[/u] Antichrist. For if these men assume one [number] when this [Antichrist] shall come having another, they will be easily led away by him as supposing him not to be the expected one. . . . It is therefore more certain, and less hazardous, to await the fulfillment of the prophecy than to be making surmises and casting about for any names that may present themselves, inasmuch as many names can be found possessing the number mentioned, and the same question will, after all, remain unsolved" (ibid., 5:30:2-3). [/b] "But when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months and will sit in the temple at Jerusalem; and then the Lord will come from heaven in the clouds, in the glory of the Father, sending this man and those who follow him into the lake of fire" (ibid., 5:30:4). Tertullian "[T]he man of sin, the son of perdition, who must first be revealed before the Lord comes, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshipped; and who is to sit in the temple of God and boast himself as being God. . . . A[b]ccording indeed to our view, he is Antichrist; as it is taught us in both the ancient and the new prophecies, and by the apostle John, who says that ‘already many false prophets have gone out into the world,’ [u]the forerunners of Antichrist[/u], who deny that Christ is come in the flesh, and do not acknowledge Jesus, meaning in God the Creator"[/b] (Against Marcion 5:16 [A.D. 210]). I could go on but I don't have the time to waste. Clearly many of the Church Fathers, Bishop, Priests and Saints of the Church have indeed definitively taught that the Antichrist is the Antichrist. They either taught truth or some from of heresy. At least according to the rules you have constructed. Edited October 28, 2009 by KnightofChrist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimR-OCDS Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 [quote name='KnightofChrist' date='27 October 2009 - 11:24 PM' timestamp='1256696681' post='1992502'] Traditional Catholic teaching, which has always been taught is Catholic Doctrine. From the Church Fathers on the Church has taught the Antichrist, the Deceiver, the Man of Sin, the Son of Perdition is the one of the last days. Dare I say you would have accused many of the Church Fathers of heresy, as well as a great many of the Saints, and Bishops including Cardinal Newman. Who all definitively taught that the "end of times Antichrist is THE antichrist." "[T]he whole time of your faith will not profit you unless you are made complete in the last time. For in the last days false prophets and corrupters shall be multiplied, and sheep shall be turned into wolves . . . and then shall [b]the deceiver[/b] of the world appear, pretending to be the Son of God, and [he] shall do signs and wonders, and the earth shall be delivered into his hands" (Didache 16:3-4 [A.D. 70]). Irenaeus "By means of the events which shall occur in the time of the Antichrist it is shown that he, being an apostate and a robber, is anxious to be adored as God, and that although a mere slave, he wishes to be proclaimed as king. For he, being endued with all the power of the devil, shall not come as a righteous king nor as a legitimate king in subjection to God, but as an impious, unjust, and lawless one . . . setting aside idols to persuade [men] that he himself is God, raising himself up as the only idol. . . . Moreover [Paul] has also pointed out this which I have shown in many ways: that the temple in Jerusalem was made by the direction of the true God. For the apostle himself, speaking in his own person, distinctly called it the temple of God [2 Thess. 2:4] . . . in which the enemy shall sit, endeavoring to show himself as Christ" (Against Heresies 5:25:1-2 [A.D. 189]). [b]"Moreover, another danger, by no means trifling, shall overtake those who falsely presume that they know the name of [u]the[/u] Antichrist. For if these men assume one [number] when this [Antichrist] shall come having another, they will be easily led away by him as supposing him not to be the expected one. . . . It is therefore more certain, and less hazardous, to await the fulfillment of the prophecy than to be making surmises and casting about for any names that may present themselves, inasmuch as many names can be found possessing the number mentioned, and the same question will, after all, remain unsolved" (ibid., 5:30:2-3). [/b] "But when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months and will sit in the temple at Jerusalem; and then the Lord will come from heaven in the clouds, in the glory of the Father, sending this man and those who follow him into the lake of fire" (ibid., 5:30:4). Tertullian "[T]he man of sin, the son of perdition, who must first be revealed before the Lord comes, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshipped; and who is to sit in the temple of God and boast himself as being God. . . . A[b]ccording indeed to our view, he is Antichrist; as it is taught us in both the ancient and the new prophecies, and by the apostle John, who says that ‘already many false prophets have gone out into the world,’ [u]the forerunners of Antichrist[/u], who deny that Christ is come in the flesh, and do not acknowledge Jesus, meaning in God the Creator"[/b] (Against Marcion 5:16 [A.D. 210]). I could go on but I don't have the time to waste. Clearly many of the Church Fathers, Bishop, Priests and Saints of the Church have indeed definitively taught that the Antichrist is the Antichrist. They either taught truth or some from of heresy. At least according to the rules you have constructed. [/quote] And from everything you posted here, its clear to me that the Church Fathers are refering to Satan, when speaking of the Anti-Christ, not a human being. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 [quote name='mortify' date='27 October 2009 - 09:34 PM' timestamp='1256693664' post='1992474'] It was always around but not as common [/quote] Everyone feels that way, but it's never been tabulated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 (edited) ... Edited October 28, 2009 by Winchester Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 [quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='28 October 2009 - 09:40 AM' timestamp='1256737245' post='1992687'] And from everything you posted here, its clear to me that the Church Fathers are refering to Satan, when speaking of the Anti-Christ, not a human being. Jim [/quote] Satan is not a man. But the Church Fathers refer to the Antichrist as "the [u]Man[/u] of sin." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimR-OCDS Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 [quote name='KnightofChrist' date='28 October 2009 - 02:43 PM' timestamp='1256751836' post='1992801'] Satan is not a man. But the Church Fathers refer to the Antichrist as "the [u]Man[/u] of sin." [/quote] Metaphorically. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 (edited) [quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='28 October 2009 - 02:01 PM' timestamp='1256752896' post='1992808'] Metaphorically. Jim [/quote] No sir you are incorrect. Satan is a spirit not a man. Satan may well possess the Antichrist but he will be a man. I'll worry about proving you wrong later. School is more important as of now. Edited October 28, 2009 by KnightofChrist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 AAUUUGHHH! IT'S NOT SIMPLY ONE MEANING! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Winchester' date='28 October 2009 - 03:03 PM' timestamp='1256756629' post='1992846'] AAUUUGHHH! IT'S NOT SIMPLY ONE MEANING! [/quote] How bout you claim the heck down. If the only way you can argue is all caps, which is misrepresentation of what I've said, perhaps you should bow out. Your argument is invalid, I've already tried to explain to you that it is not one dimensional thinking. One dimensional would say that Saint John in no way fashion or form meant or used Nero as an example of the Antichrist. But Saint John did indeed used Nero as an example of an Antichrist. Because Nero was a forerunner to, a foreshadowing of the Antichrist, and an Antichrist himself. Edited October 29, 2009 by KnightofChrist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 [quote name='KnightofChrist' date='28 October 2009 - 08:11 PM' timestamp='1256775060' post='1992967'] How bout you [s]claim [/s] calm the heck down. If the only way you can argue is all caps, which is misrepresentation of what I've said, perhaps you should bow out. Your argument is invalid, I've already tried to explain to you that it is not one dimensional thinking. One dimensional would say that Saint John in no way fashion or form meant or used Nero as an example of the Antichrist. But Saint John did indeed used Nero as an example of an Antichrist. Because Nero was a forerunner to, a foreshadowing of the Antichrist, and an Antichrist himself. [/quote] You're a sensitive one, aren't ya. I used all-caps one time, and you defecate all over yourself about it. St. John spoke literally of him as the anti-Christ using symbolism. There's also other levels of meaning. It does not take away that it is, historically, about Nero. Quite amazing literature, The Apocalypse. QUITE AMAZING INDEED. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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