Jaime Posted October 25, 2009 Share Posted October 25, 2009 Archbishop Myers also banned Gov McGreevy from receiving communion for his prochoice stance. [url="http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Pro-choice+politicians+%27not+fit%27+for+communion,+says+Vatican+official-a0118445363"]Pro-choice politicians 'not fit' for communion, says Vatican official.[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIKolbe Posted October 25, 2009 Share Posted October 25, 2009 gosh, i think hot stuff has asked enough times.. i'm gonna answer and say 'yes'. but, i think he wants to know your answer, Jim.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted October 25, 2009 Share Posted October 25, 2009 Did someone suggest that John McCain was our pro life poster politician? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimR-OCDS Posted October 25, 2009 Author Share Posted October 25, 2009 [quote name='hot stuff' date='25 October 2009 - 02:34 PM' timestamp='1256492087' post='1991096'] First off Jim, you're quoting an article that was plagiarized and stolen from the Weekly Standard. Secondly you need to read the article. So while the article casts doubts on the origin of Daschle's troubles with the Church, (although Carlson's meeting with him had nothing to do with marriage.) the stolen article shows a clear cut example of you being wrong. and here is the summar[b]y of HR 3660 FROM THE 106TH NOT THE 110TH THAT YOU QUOTED[/b] [url="http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h106-3660&tab=summary"]http://www.govtrack....660&tab=summary[/url] Please discuss the actual bill I'm talking about. I hope this was an honest mistake Again Jim I'll make it as clear as I can IF SOMEONE WERE TO VOTE TO LIFT THE BAN ON PARTIAL BIRTH ABORTION, WOULD THAT PERSON BE PROMOTING ABORTION? [/quote] You mentioned Daschle being excommunicated because of his position on abortion. I merely used the article to show that he had been excommunicated 20 years prior, do to his divorce and re-marriage. Yes, H.R.3660 was my mistake. Yes, voting against this legislation would be supporting an immoral act, i.e. Partial Birth Abortion. That being said, if I were Bishop, I'd like to hear the politicians reasons for voting against it, before I prohibited him from receiving Holy Communion. However, it is not the role of an angry mob of Catholic laity, to force the Bishop's hand in this. The Bishop's role, as they have stated, is to bring people back to the truth, not drive them away. Many of the Bishops see using the Sacrament as a weapon, woulddo more to drive people away, rather than bring them back. I agree with the Bishops on this. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimR-OCDS Posted October 25, 2009 Author Share Posted October 25, 2009 [quote name='hot stuff' date='25 October 2009 - 02:53 PM' timestamp='1256493190' post='1991110'] Archbishop Myers also banned Gov McGreevy from receiving communion for his prochoice stance. [url="http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Pro-choice+politicians+%27not+fit%27+for+communion,+says+Vatican+official-a0118445363"]Pro-choice politicians 'not fit' for communion, says Vatican official.[/url] [/quote] Your link is the general statement by the Vatican. It doesn't specifically ban] McGreevey from receiving communion for his pro-choice stance, but lets face it, McGreevey has other issues besides, that would ban him from the sacrament. The fact is, the USCCB have not taken a position to ban pro-choice Catholic politicians from receiving Holy Communion, nor will they. Even the Vatican statements, still leave the issue up to the local conference of Bishops. A Bishop in Rome,(other than the Pope), can order the Bishops of other conferences to do anything. They're power is only to advise, not order. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted October 25, 2009 Share Posted October 25, 2009 [quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='25 October 2009 - 05:20 PM' timestamp='1256505647' post='1991169'] You mentioned Daschle being excommunicated because of his position on abortion. I merely used the article to show that he had been excommunicated 20 years prior, do to his divorce and re-marriage. Yes, H.R.3660 was my mistake. Yes, voting against this legislation would be supporting an immoral act, i.e. Partial Birth Abortion. That being said, if I were Bishop, I'd like to hear the politicians reasons for voting against it, before I prohibited him from receiving Holy Communion. However, it is not the role of an angry mob of Catholic laity, to force the Bishop's hand in this. The Bishop's role, as they have stated, is to bring people back to the truth, not drive them away. Many of the Bishops see using the Sacrament as a weapon, woulddo more to drive people away, rather than bring them back. I agree with the Bishops on this. Jim [/quote] Ok so to summarize what we've learned [quote] ISSUE: ShouldCatholic politicians who publicly support abortion rights receive HolyCommunion? What principles apply to this situation? RESPONSE: AllCatholics who reject the Church's moral teaching concerning the evil ofabortion and/or advocate or promote abortion rights should not receiveCommunion until they repent of their position and are restored to fullcommunion with the Church. This is based on the fundamental right tolife and, more specifically, the Church's perennial teaching thatdirect abortion is always a grave offense against the right to life. Itis also based on traditional teaching regarding the worthy reception ofHoly Communion. Additional factorscome into play in the case of Catholic politicians. According to Churchlaw, they may even be denied Communion if they persist in their publicsupport of abortion rights. [/quote] Anyone who supports partial birth abortion falls into this category So by your own logic Jim, Nancy Pelosi, John Kerry, Joe Biden should not receive communion. And we the Catholic brethren can ask our bishops to enforce this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimR-OCDS Posted October 25, 2009 Author Share Posted October 25, 2009 [quote name='hot stuff' date='25 October 2009 - 06:31 PM' timestamp='1256506267' post='1991172'] Ok so to summarize what we've learned Anyone who supports partial birth abortion falls into this category So by your own logic Jim, Nancy Pelosi, John Kerry, Joe Biden should not receive communion. And we the Catholic brethren can ask our bishops to enforce this. [/quote] The petition wasn't asking that the Bishops to ban these Catholics from receiving Holy Communion, but demanding it. Again, I agree, according to Church teaching, these politicians should not receive Holy Communion, based on their support for abortion. However, its not my call, its their Bishops, period. I prefer the issue to be handled pastorally by the local Bishop, who's goal it is, to bring these politicians around to the truth. How they do that, is their job, not mine. To undermine my Bishop with a nasty petition, is to me, un-Charitable and un-Christian. Sorry, there is no way I could support such a petition. Whats going to be next, a petition demanding that Catholics who have been divorced be publicly prohibited from receiving Holy Communion? Then whats next after that? Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted October 25, 2009 Share Posted October 25, 2009 (edited) [quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='25 October 2009 - 04:36 PM' timestamp='1256506608' post='1991175'] However, its not my call, its their Bishops, period. [/quote] Often the person distributing Holy Communion in not the bishop. It may be a priest, a deacon, or even a layperson (though I don't think that extraordinary ministers of holy Communion should be used at regular Sunday Masses) who is the one to deny the pro-abortion politician Communion when he approaches. Edited October 25, 2009 by Resurrexi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted October 25, 2009 Share Posted October 25, 2009 [quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='25 October 2009 - 05:36 PM' timestamp='1256506608' post='1991175'] Whats going to be next, a petition demanding that Catholics who have been divorced be publicly prohibited from receiving Holy Communion? Then whats next after that? Jim [/quote] Wow Jim, you've been educated about as well as the average Catholic. (that's not a compliment) Divorced Catholics can receive the Eucharist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted October 25, 2009 Share Posted October 25, 2009 [quote name='hot stuff' date='25 October 2009 - 04:44 PM' timestamp='1256507074' post='1991180'] Wow Jim, you've been educated about as well as the average Catholic. (that's not a compliment) Divorced Catholics can receive the Eucharist. [/quote] Isn't it divorced and re'married'? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimR-OCDS Posted October 25, 2009 Author Share Posted October 25, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' date='25 October 2009 - 06:40 PM' timestamp='1256506802' post='1991177'] Often the person distributing Holy Communion in not the bishop. It may be a priest, a deacon, or even a layperson (though I don't think that extraordinary ministers of holy Communion should be used at regular Sunday Masses) who is the one to deny the pro-abortion politician Communion when he approaches. [/quote] I believe unless the Bishop prohibits a person from receiving Communion, the parish priest, and deacons can not, unless they know for certain, that the person should not be receiving. Generally, they only act on the Bishop's word. Certainly, laity acting as EMHC's can not act on their own and refuse a Catholic Holy Communion Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimR-OCDS Posted October 25, 2009 Author Share Posted October 25, 2009 (edited) [quote name='hot stuff' date='25 October 2009 - 06:44 PM' timestamp='1256507074' post='1991180'] Wow Jim, you've been educated about as well as the average Catholic. (that's not a compliment) Divorced Catholics can receive the Eucharist. [/quote] That's divorced and re-married without an annulment and I wouldn't expect a compliment from you. Hope this helps. [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/lol_grin.gif[/img] Jim Edited October 25, 2009 by JimR-OCDS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted October 25, 2009 Share Posted October 25, 2009 [quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='25 October 2009 - 05:00 PM' timestamp='1256508008' post='1991186'] That's divorced and re-married without an annulment and I wouldn't expect a compliment from you. Hope this helps. [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/lol_grin.gif[/img] Jim [/quote] So then why exactly would you expect a petition to ban Catholics who have separated from their spouses but live chastely according to their state in life, from Communion? Non sequitur, I think. The two aren't related; one group (politicians who are in question in this thread) are in a public state of grave sin. The other group, separated but chaste Catholics, are not publicly sinning in any way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimR-OCDS Posted October 25, 2009 Author Share Posted October 25, 2009 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='25 October 2009 - 07:02 PM' timestamp='1256508157' post='1991188'] So then why exactly would you expect a petition to ban Catholics who have separated from their spouses but live chastely according to their state in life, from Communion? Non sequitur, I think. The two aren't related; one group (politicians who are in question in this thread) are in a public state of grave sin. The other group, separated but chaste Catholics, are not publicly sinning in any way. [/quote] I was being a little sarcastic, but it wouldn't surprise me to see such petitions, if the USCCB had acted on the original petition. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caritas Posted October 25, 2009 Share Posted October 25, 2009 [quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='25 October 2009 - 05:36 PM' timestamp='1256506608' post='1991175'] Again, I agree, according to Church teaching, these politicians should not receive Holy Communion, based on their support for abortion. However, its not my call, its their Bishops, period. [/quote] Encouraging a bishop to follow Catholic teaching, as you say, in no way implies that the laity are making Bishop's decisions for them. There is a such thing as Sensus Fidelium The Body of Christ includes the laity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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