Foot Washing

[PassionistF]

[quote]In the Old Covenant our Father in heaven had commanded His children not to eat the blood of animals because we are not to participate in the life of animals. Animals, having no immortal souls, are lower than man in the order of created nature. However, in the New and Everlasting Covenant we consume the Blood of Christ to participate in Christ's eternal life. [/quote]

Blood = Life

You beat me to the punch Jason! Thanks for sharing this.

Coincidentally, Dr. Hahn was discussing this very same thing on a radio talk show this last week and I couldn't out the words together as well as you did.

Bruce, you did put together a very nice piece from Leviticus 6:1 - 8:36 and I thank you for that contribution. I will be reading from those passages today as part of my (gasp!) personal Scripture study.

[Bruce S]

Jason, as is usually the case, church doctrine is the ONLY thing you are capable of seeing...

Sheesh, you need to get out a little, and study, outside of doc dumping to get the full flavor of what was happening THEN, not what your denomination worked out later...

Those Jews were NOT theologians, they were just average people who knew their scriptures, and this was against everything they knew. It was LATER that this all came to be understood, and only then, did the lesson compute, with the Apostles too..

Edited April 9, 2004 by Bruce S

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote name='Bruce S' date='Apr 9 2004, 08:45 AM'] Jason, as is usually the case, church doctrine is the ONLY thing you are capable of seeing...

Sheesh, you need to get out a little, and study, outside of doc dumping to get the full flavor of what was happening THEN, not what your denomination worked out later... [/quote]
No thank you, I don't question Christ's Catholic Church.

If you want to thats your choice!

God Bless
Jason

[Bruce S]

[quote]No thank you, I don't question Christ's Catholic Church.
[/quote]

Nor, want to learn anything, beyond what you are spoon fed either.

Sheesh.

Get beyond that, it is really sooo constraining, and so limiting. History is history, and believe it or not, it exists outside of the Catholic Church. So, try and grow some here Jason. You really are coming off as a robot here with me on these debates.

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote name='PassionistF' date='Apr 9 2004, 08:37 AM']
Blood = Life

You beat me to the punch Jason! Thanks for sharing this.

Coincidentally, Dr. Hahn was discussing this very same thing on a radio talk show this last week and I couldn't out the words together as well as you did.

Bruce, you did put together a very nice piece from Leviticus 6:1 - 8:36 and I thank you for that contribution. I will be reading from those passages today as part of my (gasp!) personal Scripture study.[/quote]
Pf,

Actually that is a quote from my favorite website if you want to check it out [url="http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/scrip/a6.html"]GO HERE!!!![/url]

Very, Very good website.

God Bless
Jason

Edited April 9, 2004 by Jason

[willguy]

[quote name='Bruce S' date='Apr 9 2004, 08:45 AM'] Jason, as is usually the case, church doctrine is the ONLY thing you are capable of seeing...

Sheesh, you need to get out a little, and study, outside of doc dumping to get the full flavor of what was happening THEN, not what your denomination worked out later... [/quote]
And once again, you call him a blind sheep simply because he's Catholic and defends the Bride of Christ.

As for doc dumping, would that be similar to the trolling you've been doing by making a dozen threads, most of which consist of an opening post where you just quote some large anti-Catholic document or take a small quote from a Catholic source and twist it so that you can try and prove yourself victorious over the Catholic Church?

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote name='Bruce S' date='Apr 9 2004, 08:50 AM']
Nor, want to learn anything, beyond what you are spoon fed either.

Sheesh.

Get beyond that, it is really sooo constraining, and so limiting. History is history, and believe it or not, it exists outside of the Catholic Church. So, try and grow some here Jason. You really are coming off as a robot here with me on these debates.[/quote]
Actually Bruce, you have nothing to debate! There is only One Truth, and I have done my studies and talked with people like you before. The only reason I get involved in your posts is so people get the Truth. In normal cases I would just pray for you.

God Bless
Jason

[PassionistF]

[quote name='Bruce S' date='Apr 9 2004, 09:45 AM'] Those Jews were NOT theologians, they were just average people who knew their scriptures, and this was against everything they knew. [/quote]
Bruce,

You seem to cut more slack for them than you do for those here whom you consider as "robotic sheep".

As I said before, if you believe that you are correct and we are wrong, do so with a bit more charity Brother.

[Bruce S]

[quote]The only reason I get involved in your posts is so people get the Truth[/quote]

OK, YOUR "Truth" is THE TRUTH.

Got it.

[quote]zealot

\Zeal"ot\, n. [F. z['e]lote, L. zelotes, Gr. ?. See Zeal.] One who is zealous; one who engages warmly in any cause, and pursues his object with earnestness and ardor; [b]especially, one who is overzealous, or carried away by his zeal; one absorbed in devotion to anything; an enthusiast; a fanatical partisan.[/b]

Zealots for the one [tradition] were in hostile array against zealots for the other. --Sir J. Stephen.

In Ayrshire, Clydesdale, Nithisdale, Annandale, every parish was visited by these turbulent zealots. --Macaulay.
[/quote]

Be careful Jason, ZEAL is commendable, but there is a fine line here, and Jesus came face to face with intolerance too in HIS denomination, Judaism, and here is what He said to those who were so devoted to the LAW [parallel/denomination] that they tried to shut down anyone with a slightly different understanding of the TRUE law, the law of the heart.

[quote]Mat 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in [yourselves], neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mat 23:14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mat 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! [b]for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves. [/b][/quote]

Now, since you are somewhat remiss in cognitive skills, let me give you my [personal not sanctioned by the Vatican] interpretation of these passages, especially the last one.

The Jewish establishement [parallel the Catholic Church of today] has set ITSELF up as the sole arbiter of God, they, with thier mind numbing rules/Law [read Vatican law] made approaching God, almost impossible for the average person, only through the priesthood [read Catholic Church clergy] and the Temple offerings [read the Catholic Church sacramental system administered by the clergy] could man HOPE to be one with God. Jesus was saying "NO, NO, NO! Formalism, administered by a class of men, controlling access to God is NOT why you were the chosen people, you miffed this, and I'm taking away YOUR power to place YOUR rules between man and God, it is a personal relationship, NOT A DENOMINATION, that determines ones standing with God!"

And he condemned zealotry, HIS people, for that attitude.

You are slipping into that trap Jason, it is not allowed, and you need to think long and hard at this one.

Sorry, I love ya man, and commend your love of God, but your love of denomination is almost more than that, perhaps a misplaced zeal, but a zeal for what?

Edited April 9, 2004 by Bruce S

[Livin_the_MASS]

Coming from you, attacking the Catholic Church? I'm a sinner in need of God's Divine Mercy. I'll be the first to admit that. I don't know it all, but what GOD has so graciously given me, I will use.

I'm defending His Church that your attacking! To much zeal huh? Or better put to much facts to prove that your attacks against the Chruch are wrong and now your crying about it.

You have your Phariess thing mixed up to, it was because of there trickery and constant questions that upset Our Lord.

Don't forget Our Lord turned the tables over and ran the people out of the temple because of their abuses.

You make no sense.

In the Love of Christ
Jason

Oh, just to let you know I'm not worthy to be the dirt under Jesus' feet. What I do is for His Glory, "Who is good but God alone"

[Dave]

Bruce, how many times do we have to tell you the Catholic Church is NOT a denomination? It's Christ's Church! And we're loyal to it because we're loyal to Christ! It's not about being loyal to a denomination more so than Christ! That's just not how it is.

[willguy]

[quote]The Jewish establishement [parallel the Catholic Church of today] has set ITSELF up as the sole arbiter of God, they, with thier mind numbing rules/Law [read Vatican law] made approaching God, almost impossible for the average person, only through the priesthood [read Catholic Church clergy] and the Temple offerings [read the Catholic Church sacramental system administered by the clergy] could man HOPE to be one with God. Jesus was saying "NO, NO, NO! Formalism, administered by a class of men, controlling access to God is NOT why you were the chosen people, you miffed this, and I'm taking away YOUR power to place YOUR rules between man and God, it is a personal relationship, NOT A DENOMINATION, that determines ones standing with God!"
[/quote] Okay, now that my side has stopped hurting from laughing so hard, let me address this. The problem Jesus had with the leaders of Judaism is multifold:
1. They had set up laws that made it harder for people to approach God.
2. They had set themselves up as the only go-betweens for the people and God.
3. They followed their own laws but neglected God's laws.

Now, you may not want to believe this, but Catholicism does not make it hard for people to approach God, it does not set the priest up as the only go-between.

[yiannii]

[quote name='Bruce S' date='Apr 10 2004, 12:14 AM']Theologically Luther was a Catholic trying to CORRECT HIS CHURCH, and at first failed, as always the pride and "We are right, and YOU are wrong" attitude resulted in HIM being tossed out...but LATER, after 1/2 of the ENTIRE Catholic Church church walked out of the door, REFORM internally began. Luther was a brave man, but a product of his day, I love him, for he is so human, foibles, anger, drinking, and such, but he loved God, so much so, that at risk to his life, his very life he tried valiently to bring change, and ONLY after the corrupt Catholic Church did it's turtle routine, lashed back, in what, history has shown to be a move of God, for there is no reason otherwise that more than 1/2 [and they were not all sinners, so don't try that number here] went on to seek a more direct connection to God, unbundle worship from what was a secular state on earth, and the tyranny of the clergy.[/quote]
Luther is a tough topic.

Yes a lot of Catholics left the Church to join the reformers but you have to look into why.

The Black Plague had been raging through Europe for years (hundreds?). It is claimed that 1/3 - 1/2 of Europeans died because of it. The people who looked after the sick were Catholic Priests, Monks and Nuns, most of which died too. Some claim that roughly 95% of Priests died from the Black Plague. This Plague left monasteries, convents etc empty. So Europe was pretty desperate for priests. There was an influx of priests and monks etc who probably weren't the best people for the job.

At the same time Pope Leo X had dried up the treasury. Many people were realizing that bad things were happening in the Church hierarchy and weren't happy with this. I must stress that while this was happening no truths were changed or affected.

Most of the people weren't literate and relied on instruction from priests and monks who, due to the influx of priests, weren't the best examples of the faith. This left the Church in Europe with a poorly educated population that didn't know much about the Faith.

Luther changed the sense of sin. He taught about pre destination, he took away the accountability for sin, taught that one was saved by faith alone. The Catholic Church on the other hand taught that one had to make reparation for sin. Things weren't as easy going according to the Church. Many Europeans converted or followed Luther because his theology was simpler and much more accommodating, not to mention the fact that they didn't know any better.

In 1533 he wrote a tridus (I'm not sure about the spelling) about the private Mass. In this he said that Satan appeared to him and after a long time of argument he convinced Luther that the Mass was idolatry. As a result of this he never said Mass again. He justified his actions by referring to Judas saying that Satan had convinced Judas of his sin. Satan had told Judas the truth even though was to lead Judas to end his own life, Luther didn't.

Although Luther had a point about the corruption in the Church at that time, he had no right to start his own Church. His work goes against Christ's own words "May they all be one" or something like that anyway. Luther definitely didn't do the work of God. He has helped scatter the sheep so that the wolf can easier get the sheep on their own. Luther had many problems; he said he often saw Satan, ghosts, and demons.

Click [url="http://www.catholic.com/search.asp?searchType=radio&target=reformation"]Here[/url] for a radio show on the reformation that goes into detail about Luther. Click on the top link that is called Protestant.

[theculturewarrior]

[quote]They would NOT go against such a direct command of their scriptures. [/quote]

Why would it have bothered them unless Jesus was speaking literally, and they believed the communion "wine" was literally the Blood of Christ?

[willguy]

[quote]Jason, as is usually the case, church doctrine is the ONLY thing you are capable of seeing...

Nor, want to learn anything, beyond what you are spoon fed either.

You really are coming off as a robot here with me on these debates.
[/quote]

Yep, we're like sheep following a shepherd. Hmm... where have I ever heard Christians called to be like sheep before. It seems that it was someone important who said it. Shucks. It must have slipped my mind.