Resurrexi Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 Infant baptism for the win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 [quote name='Anomaly' date='22 October 2009 - 07:16 PM' timestamp='1256253377' post='1989845'] [b][/b]Many altruistic actions do not come from structured religious up-bringing. Even a child has a sense of right or wrong. A conscience is not just a creation of Religion. And what's a 'consistent atheist? Is that kinda like a perfect christian? [/quote] Not all children. And it's not clear whether it's nature or nurture. Without an eternal being, there is no right and wrong. There may be instinct, but it's only instinct, not some law that exists outside man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anomaly Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='22 October 2009 - 08:39 PM' timestamp='1256254758' post='1989859'] By consistent atheist, I basically mean intellectually honest. An atheist who fully understands the implications of his beliefs and never contradicts himself. Obviously most people aren't intellectually consistent like this, but it's the assumption we make so that we can model behaviour. [/quote]Or it's an overly-broad sterotype to make a shallow hypthesis workable... Win, It's merely a philisophical choice to ascribe the existence of right or wrong to an 'eternal being'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 [quote name='Anomaly' date='22 October 2009 - 08:33 PM' timestamp='1256257989' post='1989895'] Win, It's merely a philisophical choice to ascribe the existence of right or wrong to an 'eternal being'. [/quote] It's logic. Without an eternal being, there is no morality. It's not really real. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
little_miss_late Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='22 October 2009 - 07:39 PM' timestamp='1256254758' post='1989859'] Oh yea, I don't deny any of this. You miss my point. I believe that this sense of right and wrong that every person has is Natural Law. I also believe that if one is a consistent atheist (I'll address that below), then they should reject natural law. The only way to explain its existence is by more or less "what's best for humans as a race", if you know what I'm getting at. A consistent atheist should see no particular value in the human race as a whole surviving- why should he? If after his death everything is over, who cares what he does? He might as well be as happy as he could possibly be. If that means killing someone that gets in his way, or abusing people, or stealing, then why not? It's not like there's consequences. It should be essentially opportunistic- do whatever will make him happiest in the long run. If he won't get caught, or if the consequences don't outweigh the benefits, then go for it., but there isn't an inherent value for him in doing what he's been conditioned to think is 'right', since right and wrong are arbitrary. By consistent atheist, I basically mean intellectually honest. An atheist who fully understands the implications of his beliefs and never contradicts himself. Obviously most people aren't intellectually consistent like this, but it's the assumption we make so that we can model behaviour. [/quote] Really? This is probably for another thread. But you really don't think that people who don't believe in God can feel compelled to behave generously toward others? Or feel that there is inherent value in the survival of humanity? Do you have any atheist friends who you think are good people? Do you think they are intellectually dishonest? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OraProMe Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='22 October 2009 - 10:27 AM' timestamp='1256225268' post='1989632'] No, I'm saying that without God, morality is irrational and unnecessary. [/quote] Well not really. One can believe that morals have a social and cultural basis rather than a divine basis. That doesn't make morals "unnecessary", it just acknowledges that they are human constructs based on certain premises. They are human developments that guide human action rather than a set of laws that God arbitrarily assigned value to. Edited October 23, 2009 by OraProMe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varg Posted October 23, 2009 Author Share Posted October 23, 2009 [quote name='Winchester' date='22 October 2009 - 02:15 PM' timestamp='1256235308' post='1989741'] It's not our fault you adopted a position simply to outrage people. Don't turn into a troll, Varg. Learn. [/quote] Trollhammaren Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varg Posted October 23, 2009 Author Share Posted October 23, 2009 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='22 October 2009 - 12:55 PM' timestamp='1256230532' post='1989666'] If you disagree, then develop why. [/quote] Ok, so you're basically saying that atheists are more likely to commit crimes, right? So how come less than one percent of the American prison population is atheist? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 [quote name='Varg' date='23 October 2009 - 03:13 AM' timestamp='1256285609' post='1990169'] Ok, so you're basically saying that atheists are more likely to commit crimes, right? So how come less than one percent of the American prison population is atheist? [/quote] Everyone knows that only idiots are in jail for the first part. Smart people usually don't get caught. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anomaly Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 [quote name='Winchester' date='22 October 2009 - 10:12 PM' timestamp='1256260367' post='1989918'] It's logic. Without an eternal being, there is no morality. It's not really real. [/quote]No, not at all. Show how an eternal being is needed for morality. As OraProMe points out, morality can be based on human social and cultural values. Just based on the need to survive as a group, a group of humans will develop certain rules of behavior so the individuals can operate as a group. What is good for the group in the long term, may require sacrifice of the individual in the short term. That is the foundation of the sense of right or wrong and isn't dependent on an 'eternal or divine' entity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark of the Cross Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='23 October 2009 - 02:27 AM' timestamp='1256225268' post='1989632'] No, I'm saying that without God, morality is irrational and unnecessary. [/quote] Idon't think that's right. In an evolutionary atheistic society moralitywould still be valid for the benefit of the hive and evolutionaryadvancement. [quote name='Resurrexi' date='23 October 2009 - 07:16 PM' timestamp='1256285810' post='1990170'] Everyone knows that only idiots are in jail for the first part. Smart people usually don't get caught. [/quote] Ouch! Sarcasm. I like it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OraProMe Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 [quote name='Anomaly' date='23 October 2009 - 06:01 AM' timestamp='1256295674' post='1990180'] No, not at all. Show how an eternal being is needed for morality. As OraProMe points out, morality can be based on human social and cultural values. Just based on the need to survive as a group, a group of humans will develop certain rules of behavior so the individuals can operate as a group. What is good for the group in the long term, may require sacrifice of the individual in the short term. That is the foundation of the sense of right or wrong and isn't dependent on an 'eternal or divine' entity. [/quote] Oh yeah, definitely. I would like to point out that I do agree with Winchester that if there is no eternal God then there is no objective (in its most absolute understanding) morality. I'd argue that the natural law doesn't exist and isn't inscribed on the human heart, children know right from wrong because of nurture not nature, and that much of what natural law supposedly applies to is something completely and absolutely cultural (polygamy being a prime example). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 [quote name='Anomaly' date='22 October 2009 - 07:33 PM' timestamp='1256257989' post='1989895'] Or it's an overly-broad sterotype to make a shallow hypthesis workable... [/quote] I believe that my position is the logically consistent one. [quote name='little_miss_late' date='22 October 2009 - 10:05 PM' timestamp='1256267121' post='1990046'] Really? This is probably for another thread. But you really don't think that people who don't believe in God can feel compelled to behave generously toward others? Or feel that there is inherent value in the survival of humanity? Do you have any atheist friends who you think are good people? Do you think they are intellectually dishonest? [/quote] I believe that for an atheist to believe in forms of morality is inconsistent with atheism. I'm not saying none of them do. In fact most do. I'm just saying that I don't think it actually fits with what atheism is. [quote name='OraProMe' date='22 October 2009 - 11:44 PM' timestamp='1256273054' post='1990123'] Well not really. One can believe that morals have a social and cultural basis rather than a divine basis. That doesn't make morals "unnecessary", it just acknowledges that they are human constructs based on certain premises. They are human developments that guide human action rather than a set of laws that God arbitrarily assigned value to. [/quote] So how can an arbitrary human construct have any inherent value from an atheistic world view? [quote name='Varg' date='23 October 2009 - 03:13 AM' timestamp='1256285609' post='1990169'] Ok, so you're basically saying that atheists are more likely to commit crimes, right? So how come less than one percent of the American prison population is atheist? [/quote] No, I didn't say that. Try again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OraProMe Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='23 October 2009 - 08:06 AM' timestamp='1256303189' post='1990206'] So how can an arbitrary human construct have any inherent value from an atheistic world view? [/quote] Well if they're human [b]constructs[/b] they're not arbitrary are they? Their value depends on the extent to which they achieve their purpose. Would you like to address my objection about your comment that atheism leaves morals unnecessary? Let's not shift the conversation Edited October 23, 2009 by OraProMe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varg Posted October 23, 2009 Author Share Posted October 23, 2009 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='23 October 2009 - 09:06 AM' timestamp='1256303189' post='1990206'] I believe that for an atheist to believe in forms of morality is inconsistent with atheism. I'm not saying none of them do. In fact most do. I'm just saying that I don't think it actually fits with what atheism is. [/quote] How? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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