Guest Servant of Divine Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 I don't think the Blessed Virgin Mother in the Song of Songs is "the fabric of reality." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 [quote name='Servant of Divine' date='22 October 2009 - 01:03 AM' timestamp='1256191403' post='1989520'] I don't think the Blessed Virgin Mother in the Song of Songs is "the fabric of reality." [/quote] Her role as the Mother of God certainly is, and the two are intrinsically related. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Servant of Divine Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 If the Blessed Mother were the woman described in the Song of Songs, then the Doctrine on her Holy and Perpetual purity is out the window. If the man in the Song in Christ then it is indeed the Oedipus Complex, moreso even that the story of King Oedipus and Queen Jocasta. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StColette Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 [quote name='Servant of Divine' date='22 October 2009 - 02:47 AM' timestamp='1256194047' post='1989551'] If the Blessed Mother were the woman described in the Song of Songs, then the Doctrine on her Holy and Perpetual purity is out the window. If the man in the Song in Christ then it is indeed the Oedipus Complex, moreso even that the story of King Oedipus and Queen Jocasta. [/quote] No, it would not be out the window. You need to read about Biblical exegesis and the different senses of Scripture. There is both a Literal and a Spiritual sense. Go read about those senses in Dei Verbum and then read Song of Songs in light of Dei Verbum. You must also keep in mind that much of the language in Song of Songs has a different meaning than what seems to be the obvious. A good commentary would help you with this. Btw, the woman spoken of in Song of Songs is also considered to be the Church, this doesn't mean that she isn't the Spotless, Virginal Bride of Christ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StColette Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 I'd be interested to see your proof for accusing Christ of having an Oedipus Complex toward His Mother. That's a very dangerous claim. Please provide proof and citation of your theory. I'd be very interested to see where proof of Christ sexually desiring His Mother and trying to eliminate his Father would be found. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Servant of Divine Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 [quote name='StColette' date='22 October 2009 - 08:41 AM' timestamp='1256215265' post='1989604'] Btw, the woman spoken of in Song of Songs is also considered to be the Church, this doesn't mean that she isn't the Spotless, Virginal Bride of Christ. [/quote] Well, up there you just said it was the Virgin Mary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StColette Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 [quote name='Servant of Divine' date='22 October 2009 - 10:37 AM' timestamp='1256222260' post='1989620'] Well, up there you just said it was the Virgin Mary. [/quote] Correct, if you read the sentence that you quoted it reads "is also considered" meaning their are multiple meanings. Read Dei Verbum and you'll have a better understanding of the senses of Scripture. The Old Testament has both a literal sense and a spiritual sense. In some cases there can be multiple spiritual senses to a verse, but always one literal. The Literal is often associated with the historical context of the verse. For example, Isaiah speaks about Emmanuel. It speaks about an actual/literal birth of a child born from a maiden during that time period. However, the spiritual sense of that verse is often a reference to the virgin birth of Christ. Again read Dei Verbum. [url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19651118_dei-verbum_en.html"]Dei Verbum - Dogmatic Constitution on Divine Revelation[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Servant of Divine Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 So "spiritually" the Holy Virgin did the stuff descibed in the Song of Songs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StColette Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 [quote name='Servant of Divine' date='22 October 2009 - 11:44 AM' timestamp='1256226282' post='1989637'] So "spiritually" the Holy Virgin did the stuff descibed in the Song of Songs? [/quote] Read Dei Verbum and a Catholic Commentary on Song of Songs. I've never done a full exegesis on the Song of Songs (which my last one I did on Gen. 3:15 (only 1 verse) took me 4 months and was 30 pages long), so I can't give you what the Church's interpretation of all of Song of Songs is without a lot of extensive research and time. Some verses will apply to the Blessed Virgin, some to the Church, some to Christians as a whole. We see this a lot in Scripture. For instance, Rev. 11 & 12 certain verses refer to Mary, certain ones to the Church, and still others to Israel. Also certain phrases or words in Song of Songs such as "kisses" can mean different things in the Hebrew language. I know the Hebrew word for bed or bedchamber can also be defined as womb, that's just one example of how a Hebrew word or phrase can hold multiple meanings depending on what sense you're referring to. While you're at it, please respond to this [quote]I'd be interested to see your proof for accusing Christ of having an Oedipus Complex toward His Mother. That's a very dangerous claim. Please provide proof and citation of your theory. I'd be very interested to see where proof of Christ sexually desiring His Mother and trying to eliminate his Father would be found.[/quote] You've yet to address this. Once you've addressed this sufficiently, I'll continue the conversation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilllabettt Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 What wierdness. No, Jesus doesn't have any psychological problems. Sometimes I think we as people have dirty minds and that makes us read into things. Like I've heard that the centurion who was not worthy to have Jesus come into his house said so because he was having a homosexual relationship with his servant. When Jesus healed him He was therefore giving a thumbs up to homosexual relationships. Um, noooooo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 So why is this not in the debate board? Delusion board would be better, but debate's closer than simply general discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Servant of Divine Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 [quote name='StColette' date='22 October 2009 - 11:59 AM' timestamp='1256227146' post='1989641'] You've yet to address this. Once you've addressed this sufficiently, I'll continue the conversation. [/quote] I never said that Jesus had this problem. I simply stated that often we represent the Madonna in such a manner that young children- myself included when I was 4 or 5, and non-Abrahamic do at times become confused. Even the most devote Catholic must admit that in Christian art, the adult Christ and Madonna could easliy be mistaken for husband and wife, not mother and Son. A simple explaination to that effect would have sufficed it. Yet for whatever reason you said that Song of Songs- a book always ommitted from Childrens' picture Bibles- disproves this notion because the Madonna is the woman detailed in this account. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Vega Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 I think it would be extremely helpful if everyone were required to take courses in interpreting literature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Servant of Divine' date='22 October 2009 - 01:02 PM' timestamp='1256234560' post='1989737'] I never said that Jesus had this problem. I simply stated that often we represent the Madonna in such a manner that young children- myself included when I was 4 or 5, and non-Abrahamic do at times become confused. Even the most devote Catholic must admit that in Christian art, the adult Christ and Madonna could easliy be mistaken for husband and wife, not mother and Son. A simple explaination to that effect would have sufficed it. Yet for whatever reason you said that Song of Songs- a book always ommitted from Childrens' picture Bibles- disproves this notion because the Madonna is the woman detailed in this account. [/quote] You're making very sweeping generalizations. [img]http://www.betsyporter.com/images/Our_Lady_of_the_Sign_2.jpg[/img] [img]http://cfya.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/olphelp.jpg[/img] [img]http://yeyeolade.files.wordpress.com/2007/01/black_madonna_trinity_jpg.jpg[/img] There are just as many, if not more, icons which make it very clear that Mary is the Mother of God. Mary takes on further roles though, as has already been explained to you. These other elements are naturally explained and made clearer when a person looks deeper into Catholicism, but I really don't see much opportunity for confusion. What immediately comes to your mind when I say "the stable in Bethlehem"? Or "the Holy Family?" These are well known concepts. I do not see as much opportunity for confusion as you apparently do. Edited October 22, 2009 by Nihil Obstat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Servant of Divine Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 (edited) While those are beautiful icons, they portray the Child Jesus and His Mother. I'm referring to works of art, such as this one. [img]http://204.200.197.131/mary/jesus-mary-hearts-30.jpg[/img] Anyone without the proper for-knowledge what proabably assume these two are couple. Edited October 22, 2009 by Servant of Divine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now