Nihil Obstat Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 I believe that spiritually Mary has been referred to as the Bride of Christ in the same way that the Church herself is called such, and as Mary is identified with the Church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StColette Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='21 October 2009 - 12:39 PM' timestamp='1256143170' post='1989021'] You did come! Do you, by any chance, remember that time that I asked some question or another, and you were telling me about how it relates to the Church itself (as the Bride of Christ) also being identified as Mary in some way? [/quote] lol I'll have to look through some posts, but yeah I remember something like that lol If I remember correctly this is probably part of my Thesis lol which explored the relationship of Mary to each of the Persons of the Holy Trinity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StColette Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 Is it from this thread, Nihil http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=91810&view=findpost&p=1810616 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 [quote name='StColette' date='21 October 2009 - 12:00 PM' timestamp='1256144421' post='1989038'] Is it from this thread, Nihil http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=91810&view=findpost&p=1810616 [/quote] That's the one! No wonder I couldn't find it. I had no idea where to look. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StColette Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='21 October 2009 - 01:13 PM' timestamp='1256145213' post='1989047'] That's the one! No wonder I couldn't find it. I had no idea where to look. [/quote] lol I did a search for Mary +bride and then my name lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Servant of Divine Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 [quote name='StColette' date='21 October 2009 - 01:00 PM' timestamp='1256144421' post='1989038'] Is it from this thread, Nihil http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=91810&view=findpost&p=1810616 [/quote] That just makes it more confusing in relation to the Oedipus Complex, you're basically confirming that Christ and His Mother were mystically espoused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Servant of Divine' date='21 October 2009 - 04:03 PM' timestamp='1256159018' post='1989164'] That just makes it more confusing in relation to the Oedipus Complex, you're basically confirming that Christ and His Mother were mystically espoused. [/quote] Can you define the Oedipus Complex in the way to which you are referring to it, since some of us have no idea what you mean? I say in the way to which you are referring to it because I'm still not really sure exactly what the original question was. Edited October 21, 2009 by Nihil Obstat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StColette Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 [quote name='Servant of Divine' date='21 October 2009 - 05:03 PM' timestamp='1256159018' post='1989164'] That just makes it more confusing in relation to the Oedipus Complex, you're basically confirming that Christ and His Mother were mystically espoused. [/quote] mystically/spiritually yes there is a tradition of their espousal because she is a model of the Church who is the Bride of Christ and she is also the Second Eve. Nuns and Sisters are spiritually espoused to Christ and priests are considered spiritually espoused to the Church and in a sense spiritually espoused to Mary. Priests, like all humankind, are considered the children of Mary, that doesn't mean that since they are her "adopted" children and are spiritually espoused to her that it qualifies as an Oedipus Complex. I'm finding it difficult to understand how spiritual espousal is equivalent to an Oedipus Complex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StColette Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='21 October 2009 - 05:06 PM' timestamp='1256159192' post='1989169'] Can you define the Oedipus Complex in the way to which you are referring to it, since some of us have no idea what you mean? I say in the way to which you are referring to it because I'm still not really sure exactly what the original question was. [/quote] An Oedipus Complex by definition is the desire to possess the parent of the opposite sex (in the case of Oedipus it was his mother, although he didn't actually know it was his mother until after marrying her) and eliminate the parent of the opposite sex. I think Mary and Christ's spiritual espousal cannot be viewed as a Oedipus complex for the simple fact that it does not fulfill the definition of an Oedipus Complex. Christ isn't trying to possess his mother and nor is he trying to get rid of God the Father or St. Joseph. So on both of those accounts, I fail to see how their spiritual or mystical espousal can be labeled an Oedipus Complex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 I know the definition in theory, but don't see how it's related at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StColette Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='21 October 2009 - 05:20 PM' timestamp='1256160011' post='1989186'] I know the definition in theory, but don't see how it's related at all. [/quote] I don't either, because it doesn't fit the classical definition at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StColette Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 This looked interesting and addresses the spousal relationship as well, the priest agrees with my conclusion that Mary's role as spouse can be attached to each member of the Most Holy Trinity. (2) Here it is appropriate to note that the name of Mother signifies the unique relation to the Person of the Son, while the name of Spouse signifies the relation with the entire Trinity (and thus with one or the other of the Persons by appropriation). Hence Bérulle calls Mary "Spouse of the Father," because they have in common the same Son: "Daughter and Spouse of the Father, Mother and servant of the Son and sanctuary of the Holy Spirit" (Troisième Elévation). Saint Francis of Assisi calls her "Spouse of the Spirit": "Daughter and servant of the Most High and Sovereign Heavenly Father, Mother of our most Holy Lord Jesus Christ, Spouse of the Holy Spirit" (Antiphon of the Psalms of the Mystery of Jesus). This title of Spouse of the Holy Spirit is the most classic, taken up in particular by Saint Louis-Marie de Montfort, by Paul VI (Marialis Cultus #26) and by John Paul II (Redemptoris Mater #26). It could be said that Mary is the Spouse of her Son, without there being any impropriety. Just as the Church is the Mother of Jesus with Mary, so also Mary is the Spouse of Jesus with the Church. The all-beautiful Spouse of the Song of Songs is inseparably Mary and the Church. [b]The Marian interpretation of the Song of Songs, which is traditional, identifies Mary with the Spouse of Christ, which is theologically exact, since Mary is the perfect image of the Church, the Spouse of Jesus without spot or blemish. One must remember in this regard that if the Name of the Son expresses the property of a Divine Person, the Name of Spouse is in reality common to the entire Trinity. In God, there is eternally a Father and a Son, and not a Husband and a Wife. The divine name of Spouse, which characterizes the relation between God and the creature as a relation of Love, can also be legitimately appropriated to each of the three Persons. It is especially appropriated to the Son because of the Incarnation, but it can justly be appropriated to the Father and to the Spirit, for truly, the three Persons are only one Spouse, and not three Spouses. The Trinitarian communion is always virginal; it is the source of unprecedented divine-human relations, radically new by comparison with simple, natural human relations. [/b]Thus, for Saint Francis, every person who lives in charity is at the same time spouse and sister and mother of Jesus, so that Jesus is truly his Spouse and his Brother and his Child (Letter to the faithful, first version), such an expression, which Saint Clare applies most particularly to a woman who is a consecrated virgin (first Letter to Agnes of Prague), applies eminently to Mary. One can still add that for Saint Francis, the title of Spouse of the Holy Spirit is not reserved to Mary; he also applies it to Clare and to her sisters, when he writes to them: "you have espoused the Holy Spirit in choosing to live according to the perfection of the holy Gospel" (Form of Life, to Saint Clare). Here again, the lived theology of the saints sheds a living light on the mystery of the virginal "Bridehood" and Motherhood of Mary and of the Church. I found the bold part interesting. http://www.fifthmariandogma.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=264&Itemid=580&limitstart=2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='21 October 2009 - 05:06 PM' timestamp='1256159192' post='1989169']... I say in the way to which you are referring to it because I'm still not really sure exactly what the original question was. [/quote] Is Marian doctrine and devotion shaped by the sublimation of unconscious incestuous desires? I believe the main implication in the question is that Catholic doctrine - at least in the Marian aspect - is sexually perverse in some way. Perhaps more generally that repressed sexual desires (of a taboo nature) are in some ways essential to the aetiology of the "Jesus narrative" as recorded in the Scriptures. That's how I understand the question-assertion at least. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Servant of Divine Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 So, to summarise, the Song of Songs is about Mary and Jesus? If you use that interpretation of the Song, then it really is the defination of the Oedipus Complex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 [quote name='Servant of Divine' date='21 October 2009 - 11:32 PM' timestamp='1256185942' post='1989461'] So, to summarise, the Song of Songs is about Mary and Jesus? If you use that interpretation of the Song, then it really is the defination of the Oedipus Complex. [/quote] Oediupus complex is a disorder. Mary and her relationship to Jesus is part of the fabric of reality. The two don't quite compare. It seems like a bit of an anachronism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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