Guest Servant of Divine Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 Yeah, I've been wondering about this for some time. Please discuss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 wondering what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Servant of Divine Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 Our Lady often takes the role of a consort, to Christ. Indeed, some would find it odd that so much honor- including the "Lady" title is to the mother of the Lord. In many ways it satifies the Oedipus Complex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesus_lol Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 (edited) umm, ok? is this just a parallel you noticed yourself, or is this a common question/relation? I've never heard any insinuations of that sort. i think you should probably explain more one what you think the topic is, how you feel about it, and what you want in terms of answers and discussions from everrone here on PM. Edited October 21, 2009 by Jesus_lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpy Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 Jesus was around before Oedipus. QED. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddington Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 It sounds out there. But, if you say the Oedipus Complex is a distorted version of the ideal, then you get to be right. Wasn't Oedipus unaware of what he was doing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 To my knowledge, Our Lady has never been described in that fashion and I'm not finding anything on that. Do you have an example? Mary Magdelene has been described as Christ's Consort. (inappropriately) But I can't find any reference to what you are talking about Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Servant of Divine Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 Well Christ is King and the Madonna is Queen. The Twin Hearts. I'd venture to say that anybody not familiar with Christianity and Catholicism would look at images of Christ and the Immmaculata, would think They were espoused rather than mother and Son. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catholictothecore Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 That's...disturbing. Hopefully, there's a good Catholic nearby to explain things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 St. Colette made a very good post about this a while back. I'm going to try to find it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 Having trouble finding the post... but I have come across it lately........ Ideally she'll just explain it herself today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StColette Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 [quote name='Servant of Divine' date='21 October 2009 - 11:59 AM' timestamp='1256140764' post='1989002'] Well Christ is King and the Madonna is Queen. The Twin Hearts. I'd venture to say that anybody not familiar with Christianity and Catholicism would look at images of Christ and the Immmaculata, would think They were espoused rather than mother and Son. [/quote] I've always seen her as the Queen Mother, not as Queen. The Old Testament references that reflect Our Lady are about the gebirah which is Hebrew for Queen Mother or Great Lady. It was the Queen Mother who held the power in the Kingdom besides her son. This was because the King usually had many wives so it was rather impractical to give power of "queen" to multiple women. So to avoid such conflict, the power of queen was given to the King's mother. It was the "gebirah" who held the heart of the King. It was the Queen Mother who would intercede for the people before the King. The King never refused the gebirah of her wish. This is from an article by Dr. Mark Miravalle (Mariologist) The Advocating Queen Mother In a region long known for its many nations and peoples, Israel's monarchy grew alongside those other Near East kingdoms where a human king ruled. The Israelites seeing these gentile kingdoms with their kings as head wished to be like them. God's original plan for his people was that he would be their king (1 Samuel 8:7), but the people of Israel begged, pleaded, and cried out for a human king to rule them. "We will have a king over us, that we also may be like all the nations" (1 Samuel 8:19-20). God in his infinite hesed (covenant love) allowed the people to have their king. However, God allows the kingdom for his glory and the glory that would come when he would send his Son to them. Allegorically, the kingdom of Israel would lead to the kingdom of God. 4 Most of the gentile cultures of the time practiced polygamy so it was difficult for a king to pick which wife would rule with him. Instead of a wife as queen, he chose his mother to be queen. Within the kingdom of ancient Israel, the king's mother was given dominion over the king's wives. The title the Queen Mother was given was the - Gebirah - or "Great Lady." She ruled over the kingdom as queen. 5 There are many texts throughout the Old Testament scriptures that refer to the queen mother. Some of these include: 1 Kings 2:19, Jeremiah 13:18, and Proverbs 31. The queen mother played an important role all the time, but most of all in times of transition from one king to the next. As queen mother she had a great influence. 6 In 1 Kings 2:19, the queen (Bathsheba) sits at the right hand of the king (Solomon) on a seat (throne - royalty) which is brought to her. Before the seat is brought to her, the king stands to greet her and bows down showing respect for his mother and queen. "She served as an advocate, taking petitions from the people and presenting them to the people." Ibid, p. 471. {/footnote} In Jeremiah 13:18, the queen mother is mentioned along side of the king - "say to the king and the queen mother: Take a lowly seat, for your beautiful crown has come down from your head." Jeremiah is prophesying that both the king and queen would eventually lose their thrones for the way they treated the people of God. It was the primary mission of the king and queen mother to serve the people and to see to their needs. Throughout the history of Israel that was not always the case. 7 In Proverbs 31, we see the Esheth Yahil (woman of valor). This woman is also a queen mother, who gives advice and direction to her kingly son. The queen mother was not just a "figurehead", but guided the king on a variety of issues he would have to face on a daily basis - serving the poor, finding a wife, and even in the field of politics. The queen mother had dominion over her son's kingdom. 8 So as we have seen the queen mother holds an executive status in the kingdom where she helps her son rule. She is venerated, coroneted, and acts as the intercessory for the people, just as Mary today for the Church. As Hahn says, " As a political adviser and even strategist, as an advocate for the people, and as a subject who could be counted on for frankness, the queen mother was unique in her relationship to the king. 9 Furthermore, Marie-Michel Philipon, O.P. says, Mary, then, is queen, but queen in the way of a mother, serving all her children, guiding them in their most personal and intimate life, not so much by law and precept as by kindly prompting and persuasion, with an affectionate smile on her countenance as she goes about bestowing a mother's tender care on all her children, on the lowliest no less than on the more fortunate. In fact, the more humble and lowly her children, the more mother she is to them. And the more we put ourselves in Mary's guiding care, the more quickly she leads us up to God. In union with Christ, Mary guides the entire Church militant on the road to the City of God. But Mary's rule is marked, above all, by the supreme grace of her motherhood. She rules and directs souls with the power of a mother's smile and the irresistible attraction of a mother's sweetness. With a mother's intuition she is ever alert, one might say, to yield to the supremely sovereign and kingly action of her son, keeping herself in the background, for even in her own sovereign rule over the universe Mary is "more mother than queen." (St. Therese of the Child Jesus, Novissima verba, August 23, 1897). 10 ------ The Church sees Mary's role as Queen in the way in which the Old Testament prototypes of her reflect. She's the Queen Mother, not the wife. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 Ok, I found some similar info on the internet. There is legitimate Tradition which refers to Mary as a bride as well as the mother of God. [quote]Since Scripture portrays the Church as the Bride of Christ, this Marian image is certainly related to and appropriated from that one. Building on the biblical image of Christ as the "New Adam", early Christians spoke of a "New Eve", a feminine cooperator with Jesus in the economy of the redemption. Second century writers Saints Justin Martyr and Irenaeus of Lyons perceived Mary as this second Eve, who undid the sin of the first one: Christ became man by the Virgin that the disobedience which issued from the serpent might be destroyed in the same way it originated. Eve was still an undefiled virgin when she conceived the word of the serpent and brought forth disobedience and death. But the Virgin received faith and joy, at the announcement of the angel Gabriel...and she replied, "Be it done to me according to your word". So through the mediation of the Virgin he came into the world, through whom God would crush the serpent and those angels and men like him, who delivers from death those who turn from their evil ways and believe in him. 12 The seduction of a fallen angel drew Eve, a virgin espoused to a man, while the glad tidings of the holy angel drew Mary, a Virgin already espoused, to begin the plan which would dissolve the bonds of that first snare...For as the former was led astray by the word of an angel, so that she fled from God when she had disobeyed his word, so did the latter, by an angelic communication, receive the glad tidings that she should bear God, and obeyed his word. If the former disobeyed God, the latter obeyed, so that the Virgin Mary might become the advocate of the virgin Eve. Thus, as the human race fell into bondage to death by means of a virgin, so it is rescued by a virgin; virginal disobedience is balanced in the opposite scale by virginal obedience. 13[/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 [quote name='StColette' date='21 October 2009 - 11:37 AM' timestamp='1256143068' post='1989018'] I've always seen her as the Queen Mother, not as Queen. The Old Testament references that reflect Our Lady are about the gebirah which is Hebrew for Queen Mother or Great Lady. It was the Queen Mother who held the power in the Kingdom besides her son. This was because the King usually had many wives so it was rather impractical to give power of "queen" to multiple women. So to avoid such conflict, the power of queen was given to the King's mother. [/quote] You did come! Do you, by any chance, remember that time that I asked some question or another, and you were telling me about how it relates to the Church itself (as the Bride of Christ) also being identified as Mary in some way? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cassandragirl Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 [quote name='Servant of Divine' date='21 October 2009 - 10:59 AM' timestamp='1256140764' post='1989002'] Well Christ is King and the Madonna is Queen. The Twin Hearts. I'd venture to say that anybody not familiar with Christianity and Catholicism would look at images of Christ and the Immmaculata, would think They were espoused rather than mother and Son. [/quote] In ancient Israel, the queen is the mother of the King not any of his wives. Mary is Queen not because she is his consort but because she is his Mother. She has been called he spouse of the Holy spirit but never consort of Christ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now