Dialogue And Discussion

[Good Friday]

With dUSt's or some other mod's permission, I would like to have this thread work in the same sort of manner that Bro. Adam's thread did, and some others have in the past here. I'd like to be able to answer Lumberjack's and Bruce's questions, comments, complaints, concerns, etc. on a one-on-one basis. (Well, it would be two-on-one, I guess, but whatever). I'm asking for this for the sake of clarity as well as civility.

Of course, this depends entirely upon the approval of the mods, and the acceptance of Lumberjack and Bruce.

[the lumberjack]

I'm all for it.

[the lumberjack]

being that Bruce WAS a catholic, I don't know if he'll be thru much...but who knows.

for now, explain to me the means by which a Catholic comes to justification, and how one increases in justification and preserves it.

[Good Friday]

[quote][b]Lumberjack writes:[/b]
for now, explain to me the means by which a Catholic comes to justification, and how one increases in justification and preserves it.[/quote]
I think a good place to start is where we might agree. As you may or may not know, the Catholic Church and the Lutheran World Federation issued a [url="http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html"]Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification[/url]. I'm not going to quote the whole thing to you, being that you and Bruce have expressed a concern over what you guys call "doc dumps," but I will quote the two most relevant passages:

[quote]In faith we together hold the conviction that justification is the work of the triune God.  The Father sent his Son into the world to save sinners.  The foundation and presupposition of justification is the incarnation, death, and resurrection of Christ.  Justification thus means that Christ himself is our righteousness, in which we share through the Holy Spirit in accord with the will of the Father.  Together we confess: By grace alone, in faith in Christ's saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to good works.  - [i]Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification[/i], #15[/quote]

[quote]The understanding of the doctrine of justification set forth in this declaration shows that a consensus in basic truths of the doctrine of justification exists between Lutherans and Catholics.  In light of this consensus the remaining differences of language, theological elaboration, and emphasis in the understanding of justification described in paras. 18 to 39 are acceptable.  Therefore the Lutheran and the Catholic explications of justification are in their difference open to one another and do not destroy the consensus regarding the basic truths.  - [i]Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification[/i], #40[/quote]
I've quoted these passages first of all to demonstrate that there are points upon which Catholics and Protestants can and do agree. The Catholic Church, despite the obstinance of some of her children, is always willing to agree with others where she can, and to work through disagreements with others in charity, without compromising her Deposit of Faith.

Now, I'll try to explain what we believe about justification as concisely and completely as I can, without anymore "doc dumps."

With Protestants, the Church teaches that faith is absolutely necessary for justification -- which is, according to Church teaching, "not remission of sins merely, but also the sanctification and renewal of the inward man" (Council of Trent, [i]Decree on Justification[/i], chapter 7). The Church has always taught that faith is necessary for this sanctification and renewal of the inward man, which includes but is not limited to the remission of sins.

The Church differs with Protestants on the relationship of good works to justification. While the Church teaches that nothing can merit justification, she also teaches that good works are necessary for a living faith. Rather than seeing works as a symptom of faith, as do most Protestants, the Church views good works as the growth of faith. If the faith does not grow, then it dies, and with it the sanctification that continues after justification. The Church teaches that good works are not a mere symptom of faith, but the faith itself growing in the grace of Jesus Christ. If you have a seed, but the seed does not grow into a fruit-bearing tree, then what good is it? Likewise, if you have faith, but the faith does not grow into a tree bearing fruit of good works, what good is it? A person who has faith and is baptized, but does no good works afterward, is like a child who dies shortly after being born. Yes, he had faith and was baptized, and thus was born again; but without any good works he does not grow, and dies.

So, in summary, the Church's teaching on justification is that it can't be merited. It comes through the grace of Jesus Christ, a grace which manifests itself through faith. This justification is not just the remission of sins, but the sanctification and renewal of the person, a sanctification that begins at Baptism and continues afterward if the faith continues to grow in good works.

Edited April 6, 2004 by Good Friday

[Bruce S]

OK, I can be serious, if the occasion demands it. I'm game.

For me, the stumbling block is the morphing of the Catholic Church into basically a government, with leaders that are bascially Kings, Dukes, and Knights. The complete powerlessness of the laity, which, I believe leads to the abuses we have seen recently, and over the centuries is the end result of a leadership accountable to no one but themselves.

The Marian thing bothers me immensely. The apparitions moreso.

And the fascination with the dead.

And the claim of being right all the time, despite so many instances where the church has seriously made some huge whoppers.

There are others, but for starters, these are the aspects that bother me the most.

Edited April 6, 2004 by Bruce S

[dUSt]

This is fine by me. Anyone who posts in this thread other than the people Good Friday invited above will be deleted and spanked.

[Bruce S]

[quote]This is fine by me. Anyone who posts in this thread other than the people Good Friday invited above will be deleted and spanked.[/quote]

I demand they be turned over to the Inquisition for burning at the stake, that is the least that a real Catholic moderator should do. Grin....

[Good Friday]

Bruce, glad to see that you're up for this too. dUSt, thanks.

[quote][b]Bruce writes:[/b]
For me, the stumbling block is the morphing of the Catholic Church into basically a government, with leaders that are bascially Kings, Dukes, and Knights. The complete powerlessness of the laity, which, I believe leads to the abuses we have seen recently, and over the centuries is the end result of a leadership accountable to no one but themselves.[/quote]
I won't deny that there is a governmental structure to the Church, nor will I admit that the governmental structure is a bad thing. In order to keep the Church truly universal in our modern world, it's necessary for her to be a global Church. In order for her to be global, she must have some sort of government set up to keep the faith of the Church strong and unchanging throughout the world. If the governmental structures in the Church didn't exist, Catholics in Africa might believe that female genital mutilation is okay. Catholics in Afghanistan might be joining al-Qaeda, or Catholics in Palestine joining Hamas, and they might think that's perfectly all right. Catholics in the United States might be thinking abortion is okay, that active homosexuality is okay, without anyone to tell them that it's not okay in the eyes of the Church. In order to keep the faith of the Church universal, there must be a universal leadership for the whole Church.

That said, there has been a movement since before the Second Vatican Council to make the Church less political. Some would say it started with Bl. Pope John XXIII and Vatican II, but I disagree. I think it started before that. But at least since the Second Vatican Council, the Bishops and the Pope are beginning to be seen less as political leaders or governmental heads and more as the spiritual leaders of the Catholic Church, which is what they truly are. Of course, they do still have a role in politics, because politics are involved in human morality and the dignity of the human person. God and His Church, therefore, should be very interested in politics and expressing the Christian view of morality and the dignity of the human person. This is nothing new to Protestants, many of whom are very vocal in politics for much the same reason.

[quote]The Marian thing bothers me immensely. The apparitions moreso.[/quote]
May I ask what, specifically, bothers you about Marian devotion and apparitions? Then I'll try to answer those issues.

[quote]And the fascination with the dead.[/quote]
We have no fascination with the dead, only the living. We believe that our brothers and sisters in Heaven and in Purgatory are very much alive, and in fact much more alive than we are, because both have the promise of sharing in God's eternal life.

But if you'll tell me what, specifically, bothers you about the Communion of Saints, I'll be glad to address those points.

[quote]And the claim of being right all the time, despite so many instances where the church has seriously made some huge whoppers.[/quote]
We don't claim that all the decisions of the Church have always been right, and we certainly don't claim that all the actions of the Church -- either collectively or among individual members -- were right. We do, however, say that there are certain teachings of the Church which are infallible, which absolutely cannot be subject to error, and they are:

1. Teachings defined by the Pope invoking the charism of infallibility. This is called an [i]ex cathedra[/i] declaration, and it's very rare. In fact, Catholics only know of two, maybe three [i]ex cathedra[/i] declarations -- the Immaculate Conception of Mary, the Assumption of Mary into Heaven, and the reservation of Holy Orders for men only. In all three cases, the Pope did not just pull these doctrines out of the air. Catholics have believed in the Immaculate Conception of Mary, her Assumption into Heaven, and the all-male priesthood for a very long time. But because those doctrines were so controversial, the Pope exercised his charism of infallibility to confirm that they were Truth.

2. Teachings defined by Ecumenical Councils. These teachings range from the basic beliefs of Christianity defined at the Council of Nicea, in which all Christians believe, to the teachings of the Council of Trent, which began the counter-reformation, to the pastoral teachings of the Second Vatican Council.

3. Teachings of the ordinary magisterium. These teachings, as explained by the Second Vatican Council's document [i]Lumen Gentium[/i], are teachings of faith and morals that the Pope and the Bishops agree upon. These teachings can include more recent positions on euthanasia, human cloning, etc. which have not yet been defined by an Ecumenical Council or an [i]ex cathedra[/i] statement, but are nevertheless infallible because they are universally taught by the Bishops in union with the Pope.

These are the only three kinds of teachings that can be considered infallible. The rest fall under the category of "prudential judgements" -- meaning judgements made by the Pope, or by an individual Bishop, which may or may not be infallibly true but should nevertheless be obeyed by the Church's faithful, trusting in the ministry of their Pope and their Bishops. Such prudential judgements might include the rubrics of the Mass, the charism of priestly celibacy, etc. Many prudential judgements are also matters of discipline, that is, matters of Church custom that are in no way infallible, but are still binding until the Pope and the Bishops decide to change them.

[Justified Saint]

Well, I was enjoying reading this thread but it would seem that some can't maintain serious discussion.


<speeds off in pope mobile to avoid spanking>