Questions On Vows (Obedience, Chastity, Poverty)

[TotusTuusMaria]

thank you nunsense for taking the time to respond here. God bless you!

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='TotusTuusMaria' date='19 October 2009 - 07:18 PM' timestamp='1255940327' post='1987763']
thank you nunsense for taking the time to respond here. God bless you!
[/quote]

I love being here at phatmass - everyone has always been so helpful and supportive to me, so if I can help anyone else out at all, that is a great pleasure for me.

I remember how much I wanted to know about Carmel before entering, so I can understand the curiosity too. It isn't as if everyone can spend time inside a cloistered community, so naturally it seems a little mysterious and fascinating....

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='Jennifer G.' date='19 October 2009 - 11:49 AM' timestamp='1255913379' post='1987581']

One more odd question... do the nuns get to use bathroom facilities in the morning/night? I would hate to go all day with gunk in my mouth.
[/quote]

Sorry, I forgot to answer this one. Always remembering that each community is different, this is what I experienced. In Wolverhampton (1991) and Kirk Edge (1990) and Edmonton (1991), we were allowed to take hot water from the bathroom to our cells after Compline (Night Prayer). We used this for washing ourselves in the cell before bed, and we kept some of the water for the morning washing, and of course the water was always cold by morning. I brushed my teeth before bed and after rising in the morning, and usually managed to get it done during the "Silence"(a private rest time) after midday Recreation. Washing in the cell was done using a plastic basin - at WV this was put on a washstand and kept inside the stand during the day, and we washed standing over the washstand. At Kirk Edge, the basin was placed on a plastic sheet, which was folded up and put under the bed during the day, and we washed on our knees on the sheet and leaning over the bowl.

At KE we had one bath per week and one shower if we wanted it (some of the older sisters didn't like showers). At WV we had one bath per week. At Edmonton we had one shower or bath per week. On "bath nights", we would not attend Compline or Matins (Readings), but would go to take our bath after evening Recreation when all the other sisters were heading off to the choir. We would "take back" the Office, meaning we had to say it privately.

At WV we had a bed with regular mattress, a small table and chair, the washstand and a cupboard for our clothes, and the Carmelite stool. At Kirk Edge we had only a bed with straw mattress, a small table and the stool. We kept all our clothes under our pillow, and all our washing things under the bed. Edmonton had a bed with reg mattress, a desk and chair and a built in closet with hanging space and shelves, plus the sink. None of the Carmels had mirrors.

During the night, if nature called, at WV and KE, we used what was called an "article", a little plastic commode type bucket with a lid. In the morning when we "did our cells", we would make a "journey" to the D.O. (which means "domestic office" or sometimes called H.O. for "humble office") - which was the toilet block - and we would empty our articles and wash them out and dry them before putting them back in our cell.

At Edmonton, which was a purpose built facility for the nuns, each cell had a sink with hot and cold water, although for mortification purposes, Carmelites tend to wash their hands in cold water. During the night we walked down the hall to the toilet block and did not use an article at all. Edmonton was very modern though because the convent had been built for them and they made it very functional.

Oh yeah, this might not be true for all 1990 Carmels, but at KE, we were given one roll of toilet paper, which we kept in our cell. We would tear off "pocket paper" - whatever we thought we would need, and put it in our pocket to use during the day. There were rolls of a waxy type toilet paper in the toilets for emergency use, but when a sister would run out of pocket paper (the soft kind) then she had to ask permission for another roll. I have to say that I found this very humbling. This did not happen at WV or Edmonton - the toilets were well equipped with paper and no one knew how much a sister used !!

Isn't it funny how little things can seem so important some times?? Wherever you end up, there will no doubt be little things that just seem quaint or silly to you. It is all part of the self-surrender!

Edited October 19, 2009 by nunsense

[InHisLove726]

Nunsense, your replies are always so edifying. I'm learning a lot about Carmel just from reading your posts.

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='InHisLove726' date='19 October 2009 - 09:15 PM' timestamp='1255947314' post='1987769']
Nunsense, your replies are always so edifying. I'm learning a lot about Carmel just from reading your posts.
[/quote]

I love Carmel with all my heart and soul and think that each community I was in had something special about it despite all being different as well. I am always happy when someone feels they have a vocation to Carmel! So I am quite happy to talk about it and to dispel any myths or misconceptions. The reality can be stark, but it is also beautiful.

[InHisLove726]

[quote name='nunsense' date='19 October 2009 - 06:19 AM' timestamp='1255947591' post='1987771']
I love Carmel with all my heart and soul and think that each community I was in had something special about it despite all being different as well. I am always happy when someone feels they have a vocation to Carmel! So I am quite happy to talk about it and to dispel any myths or misconceptions. The reality can be stark, but it is also beautiful.
[/quote]

I agree. Since I have not visited a Carmelite cloister yet or lived in one, I feel like I can read a lot of material but until I go there to actually witness the life for myself, I don't really know what the life is like. There are so many myths circulating around on the internet. It's wonderful to have someone here to dispel most of them (if not all). God bless you, Annie.

[Jennifer G.]

What is the pre-formation (entry) process like? Do they still do tons of medical and psychiatry tests? (Or is that one of those pre Vatican II things?).

[TotusTuusMaria]

I don't know about washing, however when friends and I visited Elysburg for the tour/Dedication Mass we noticed two bathrooms (and there was a side of the monastery we didn't have a chance to see) with multiple showers and a toliet or two. Then there was a toliet in a washing room that looked to be for the disabled.

It was mentioned while we were there, which is why I am even replying, that both Elysburg and Valparaiso have a practice of brushing their teeth after every meal. So yeah... different communities vary when it comes to hygiene practices I guess.

[InHisLove726]

[quote name='Jennifer G.' date='19 October 2009 - 07:46 AM' timestamp='1255952813' post='1987782']
What is the pre-formation (entry) process like? Do they still do tons of medical and psychiatry tests? (Or is that one of those pre Vatican II things?).
[/quote]

It really depends on the community. Since all monasteries are autonomous, they each have their own procedures in place.

As far as I know, the Carmel in Buffalo does not have extensive tests. They require that you have a chest x-ray to scan for tuberculosis, but that's the only medical procedure they have.

As far as other pre-entry formation requirements, pretty much every community I have encountered requires that the applicant write an autobiography about themselves. This, I believe, helps the community determine what the applicant's main motivation for application is. Letters of reference are common as well from spiritual directors, parish priests, and the like.

When your application is submitted, the monastery's professed have what is called a "Votation" where all the professed members vote on whether the candidate should be admitted or not. You won't hear your acceptance until after this is done. It helps keep the community like a family if all of them have a fair vote.

[HisChild]

[quote name='nunsense' date='19 October 2009 - 03:19 AM' timestamp='1255947591' post='1987771']
The reality can be stark, but it is also beautiful.
[/quote]


The way I see it, if one were to enter Carmel, or any religious life for that matter, why would they only want to give part of themselves? If they're going to offer their life as an immolation, go for the gold, so to speak.

As I've looked at various orders in discernment, there have been other orders where I think, 'oh, no way'. To me, whatever I saw was not 'me', or too difficult. Whereas in Carmel to others what I see as surmountable might not seem that way to them. I think if someone is called to a particular charism or congregation or community, among other things our Lord will give them the grace of attraction to accept His will for them.

[GraceUk]

Thank you for all this information on Carmel. As I put in another thread many many years ago I thought of the religious life but I didn't have the courage to follow it through. I hope you don't mind me asking but what was the hardest thing you found in Carmel. One thing I was told about was the cold. As I was told there was no heating at all allowed in most Carmels. But that was a long long time ago. In the 1970's.

[HisChild]

[quote name='GraceUk' date='19 October 2009 - 09:40 AM' timestamp='1255970457' post='1987841']
Thank you for all this information on Carmel. As I put in another thread many many years ago I thought of the religious life but I didn't have the courage to follow it through. I hope you don't mind me asking but what was the hardest thing you found in Carmel. One thing I was told about was the cold. As I was told there was no heating at all allowed in most Carmels. But that was a long long time ago. In the 1970's.
[/quote]

I remember visiting a Carmel and the chapel was freezing! I thought it was because we were near the sea. I had a heater in my room but it could have been because I was a visitor.

I'd love to hear others' experiences. Maybe it depends on the Carmel?

[Jennifer G.]

(hmm, what's that post rating thing? Thought it was part of the multi-quote. The mutli-quote doesn't seem to work, either...)

[quote name='GraceUk' date='19 October 2009 - 01:40 PM' timestamp='1255970457' post='1987841']
Thank you for all this information on Carmel. As I put in another thread many many years ago I thought of the religious life but I didn't have the courage to follow it through. I hope you don't mind me asking but what was the hardest thing you found in Carmel. One thing I was told about was the cold. As I was told there was no heating at all allowed in most Carmels. But that was a long long time ago. In the 1970's.
[/quote]

I think that would be one of my problems - I'm always cold. Although, isn't wool (are the habits made out of wool?) supposed to keep you warm?

Anyway, what are the novitiate classes like? Do they have tests and such (if you don't do well enough, you can't become a nun?)?

[quote name='TotusTuusMaria']I don't know about washing, however when friends and I visited Elysburg for the tour/Dedication Mass we noticed two bathrooms (and there was a side of the monastery we didn't have a chance to see) with multiple showers and a toliet or two. Then there was a toliet in a washing room that looked to be for the disabled.

It was mentioned while we were there, which is why I am even replying, that both Elysburg and Valparaiso have a practice of brushing their teeth after every meal. So yeah... different communities vary when it comes to hygiene practices I guess.[/quote]

Sounds like something my mom would prefer - brushing teeth after every meal.

Anyway, speaking of Elysburg, are they one of the 1990s constitution carmels? What's that one like? (i.e., horarium, etc.)

Edited October 19, 2009 by Jennifer G.

[laetitia crucis]

I know this is a tad off-topic, but as we're talking about Carmels, could someone explain why a Carmelite monastery is called "Carmel"?

Do other orders have special names for their convents/priories/monasteries/houses?

Ever since beginning my discernment (though I must admit I've never felt drawn to the Carmelites despite having a special place in my heart for Therese and John of the Cross) I've wondering about the ever-elusive "Carmel" origin.

Thanks in advance!

lc

[TotusTuusMaria]

[quote name='Jennifer G.' date='19 October 2009 - 06:55 PM' timestamp='1255989348' post='1987972']

Sounds like something my mom would prefer - brushing teeth after every meal.

Anyway, speaking of Elysburg, are they one of the 1990s constitution carmels? What's that one like? (i.e., horarium, etc.)
[/quote]

They are 1990. They are a very recent foundation made by the Carmel of Jesus, Mary, and Joseph in Valparaiso, Nebraska (which is also 1990). They have eleven sisters.

Their day:
4:30am. The day begins with the sound of the clapper.
5:00am. Lauds
5:30am. Meditation
6:40am. Prime, followed by Mass, Thanksgiving, and then Terce
9:00am. work and chores
10:40am. Sext and examination of conscience
11:00am. Meal time
12:00pm. recreation
1:00pm. Visit to the Blessed Sacrament and then time for quiet in cell.
2:00pm. None and Holy Rosary, then followed by spiritual reading in cell
3:00pm. Continuation of work/chores
3:50pm. Novice Mistress instructs novices
4:30pm. Vespers and then an hour of meditation
6:00pm. Supper
8:00pm. Compline followed by grand silence
9:00pm. Matins
10:30pm. Retire

They resemble Valparaiso a lot. Like Valparaiso they also use the Carmelite Rite and have the Extraordinary Form of the Mass daily. They have a FSSP chaplain.

Edited October 20, 2009 by TotusTuusMaria