Baptism

[the lumberjack]

laud, this isn't about division or denomination or anything else about protestantism...its about where your confidence lies...in the Church, or in Christ.

Christianity is NOT religion...its relationship. A man of God is a Man of God...Catholic Church or not...

people have posted what you say before, that the Catholic Church is based on Christ's teachings, well laud, I will ask you only one:

show me, in the Bible, where Christ taught that we should wear a scapular in order to be saved by Mary, the Saturday after we die, in order to get out of purgatory.

God bless you brother.

love.

[Good Friday]

[quote][b]LJ writes:[/b]
show me, in the Bible, where Christ taught that we should wear a scapular in order to be saved by Mary, the Saturday after we die, in order to get out of purgatory.[/quote]
First of all, you're trying to use private revelation against the Church. That's not going to work, because the Church doesn't require anyone to believe in private revelation, nor does she necessarily believe in it herself. The brown scapular is not necessary for salvation, and a Catholic is free to either wear it or not wear it, as he chooses.

Secondly, while Christ did not teach anything about the brown scapular in the Bible, that doesn't negate the possibility. Christ said that the Holy Spirit would lead the Church into all truth, meaning that He hadn't yet led the Church into all truth -- there was more to come. Christ Himself didn't oppose the use of sacramentals. The woman with the flow of blood touched the tassle of his cloak and was healed. There is more talk of sacramentals in Acts.

Third, you are inaccurately stating Church teaching regarding the brown scapular. In and of itself, it does absolutely nothing. It's a piece of cloth. Period. Exclamation point. Worn as an outward sign of an inward faith in God, and in the intercession of the Virgin Mary, it is an aid to salvation -- in that it reminds us of our own faith, and in that it shows God our willingness to put on the armor He's giving us. A man who dies in a state of mortal sin or without faith in God, even if wearing the brown scapular, will not be saved.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Apr 25 2004, 01:46 AM'] laud, this isn't about division or denomination or anything else about protestantism...its about where your confidence lies...in the Church, or in Christ.

Christianity is NOT religion...its relationship. A man of God is a Man of God...Catholic Church or not...

people have posted what you say before, that the Catholic Church is based on Christ's teachings, well laud, I will ask you only one:

show me, in the Bible, where Christ taught that we should wear a scapular in order to be saved by Mary, the Saturday after we die, in order to get out of purgatory.

God bless you brother.

love. [/quote]
I totally agree that Christianity is about a relationship, but you can still say it is a religion. Of course it is different than other religions so its cool to emphasize that its more than just a religion, its the real deal.

Anyway, sorry if you already knew what I posted, I was just trying to state the Catholic perspective because the things you typed didn't make sense to me based on how I actually understand things (being a Catholic and all).

This is funny:
[quote]show me, in the Bible, where Christ taught that we should wear a scapular in order to be saved by Mary, the Saturday after we die, in order to get out of purgatory.[/quote]
That's in one of the books that the protestants took out of the Bible! LOL! j/k

I'm sure you know that the Church teaches that salvation is by Christ and not Mary, and that wearing a scapular doesn't make you saved. But Mary is the Mediatrix of Grace and so someone can attain the grace of final perserverance and all that through the subordinate mediation of Mary, but this does not mean that you are saved by Mary, Christ alone is the saviour of the world. And the sabbatine privledge to which you have alluded is a cool tradition based on private revelation but it should be understood within the context of authentic Catholic doctrine and not from a foreign context such as anti-catholicism or something. And you probably know about purgatory from being on here all this time. The Catholic Answers article is a good summary. The doctrines of the Faith (such as purgatory) are rooted in Scripture and are harmonious with Scripture, and often shed great light upon the mysteries of Scripture, but the Church's teachings are not bound to a kind of sola scriptura based exegetical foundation. Its Scripture, Sacred Tradition and the Magisterium. Tradition precedes Scripture and provides the context in which the Church approaches Scripture (and vice versa). They interpenetrate in many ways and form the one, living deposit of Faith entrusted to the Church by Christ.

Peace.

[the lumberjack]

you misquote me, GF...I never said you had to wear it to be saved...I said mary would swoop thru purgatory and pull you out, so long as you died with it on...in tact.

so like, if lets say, Laud wore one..and the string broke...and he got HIT BY A TRAIN on the way to having it fixed, he would be in purgatory for who knows how long...BUT if he died with it on, POOF, the following Saturday he'd be sprung like a spring chicken.

and you say it has nothing to do with salvation, yet you also say "it is an aid to salvation"...as if God's grace isn't enough for our salvation, that we should have to worry about wearing something like that?

and IF the Catholic Church doesn't say you HAVE TO wear it, would you mind showing me where in your documents is says you don't?

God bless.

[Good Friday]

[quote][b]LJ writes:[/b]
so like, if lets say, Laud wore one..and the string broke...and he got HIT BY A TRAIN on the way to having it fixed, he would be in purgatory for who knows how long...BUT if he died with it on, POOF, the following Saturday he'd be sprung like a spring chicken.[/quote]
That's not how it works. The point is the intention of wearing it. It's not a magic charm or anything, it's a symbol of faith. If you intend to be wearing it, but it falls off and then you die, it would be as if you had been wearing it -- no distinction, because the grace lies in the intent to wear the scapular. It's not a good luck charm.

[quote]and you say it has nothing to do with salvation, yet you also say "it is an aid to salvation"...as if God's grace isn't enough for our salvation, that we should have to worry about wearing something like that?[/quote]
Now you're misquoting me. I didn't say it had nothing to do with salvation, I said it wasn't [i]necessary[/i] for salvation. Nor did I ever say that God's grace isn't enough for salvation, nor has the Church. The scapular doesn't work [i]apart[/i] from God's grace, it's an [i]instrument[/i] of God's grace. God gives grace through the scapular. Without God's grace, the scapular has no meaning and is just a piece of cloth.

[quote]and IF the Catholic Church doesn't say you HAVE TO wear it, would you mind showing me where in your documents is says you don't?[/quote]
I'd rather you showed me where it says we [i]do[/i] have to wear it. Since you're the one making the claim that our Church teaches that the scapular is necessary for salvation, and since we know full well that our Church does not teach that, the burden of proof is on you. Prove to me that my Church teaches that we have to wear the scapular.

[Good Friday]

Oh, and I'd like you to address this part of my post, please:

[quote]Secondly, while Christ did not teach anything about the brown scapular in the Bible, that doesn't negate the possibility. Christ said that the Holy Spirit would lead the Church into all truth, meaning that He hadn't yet led the Church into all truth -- there was more to come. Christ Himself didn't oppose the use of sacramentals. The woman with the flow of blood touched the tassle of his cloak and was healed. There is more talk of sacramentals in Acts.[/quote]

[the lumberjack]

okay, first, I never said the Catholic Church said it was necessary for salvation...just getting sprung from purgatory...but if that is included in the Catholic Church salvation, then yeah, I'm saying that.

and to your second post, Christ was speaking directly to the Apostles. and look at what we have...the Bible. all truth...given by God to man thru God's Holy Spirit...oh my.

as for the woman, she had so much faith in Christ, and thought herself so unworthy, that her FAITH in Christ healed her, not the touching of the garment. she could have touched one of His toenail clippings believing the same thing...would you then regard toenail clippings as a sacramental? and unless you have the ACTUAL garment worn by Christ on that day...whcih I don't think you do...no thanks.

amen and God bless.

[Good Friday]

[quote][b]LJ writes:[/b]
would you then regard toenail clippings as a sacramental?[/quote]
Umm, if I had the toenail clippings of [b]God Incarnate[/b], and if they had healed a woman from a twelve-year-old hemorrhage, then heck yeah, I'd regard them as a sacramental.

I'll get back to the serious part of this thread later. I've got to go to bed, it's almost 5 in the morning here.

[CreepyCrawler]

i think we've gotten away from the original question.

i have two questions for the protestants:
what does baptism do? does it do anything to your soul, why or why not?

what is baptism? is it just a demonstration of faith and a symbol of something or is it an actual washing/regeneration of your soul?

thanks.

[CreepyCrawler]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Apr 25 2004, 02:21 AM']

as for the woman, she had so much faith in Christ, and thought herself so unworthy, that her FAITH in Christ healed her, not the touching of the garment. she could have touched one of His toenail clippings believing the same thing...would you then regard toenail clippings as a sacramental? and unless you have the ACTUAL garment worn by Christ on that day...whcih I don't think you do...no thanks.

[/quote]
I thought it was the power of God that went out of Christ that healed her, not her faith (a human thing). Why would Christ say that power went through Him (out of Him, how He knew that someone had touched Him)? It's not that His clothes were holy of themselves, but that God's power was able to move through the clothing into that woman. It wasn't her faith which healed her or she would have been healed as soon as she thought of touching the garment. But she had to touch the garment and then she was healed by Christ's healing power moving through the garment.
Only God can heal, not humans, right? According to you, what humans do (even believing is a 'doing' since it's a verb and it's the human that does it) does not save or heal us, it is what God does. So how is 'your faith saves you' not works? How is that not contradictory to "JESUS saves you" since you are in one case saying God saves you and in the other that it is YOUR FAITH, something that comes from you, which saves?
But now back to my two previous questions on what is baptism to protestants? and why? (does that sound like an essay question?)

[the lumberjack]

Matthew 9
[quote]20 And, behold, a woman, which was diseased with an issue of blood twelve years, came behind him, and touched the hem of his garment:

21 For she said within herself, If I may but touch his garment, I shall be whole.

22 But Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said, Daughter, be of good comfort; [b]thy faith hath made thee whole.[/b] And the woman was made whole from that hour.[/quote]

hmmm...what did CHRIST say?


Mark 5

[quote]25 And a certain woman, which had an issue of blood twelve years,

26 And had suffered many things of many physicians, and had spent all that she had, and was nothing bettered, but rather grew worse,

27 When she had heard of Jesus, came in the press behind, and touched his garment.

28 For she said, If I may touch but his clothes, I shall be whole.

29 And straightway the fountain of her blood was dried up; and she felt in her body that she was healed of that plague.

30 And Jesus, immediately knowing in himself that virtue had gone out of him, turned him about in the press, and said, Who touched my clothes?

31 And his disciples said unto him, Thou seest the multitude thronging thee, and sayest thou, Who touched me?

32 And he looked round about to see her that had done this thing.

33 But the woman fearing and trembling, knowing what was done in her, came and fell down before him, and told him all the truth.

34 And he said unto her, [b]Daughter, thy faith hath made thee whole;[/b] go in peace, and be whole of thy plague.[/quote]

what did CHRIST say?

Luke 8
[quote]43 And a woman having an issue of blood twelve years, which had spent all her living upon physicians, neither could be healed of any,

44 Came behind him, and touched the border of his garment: and immediately her issue of blood stanched.

45 And Jesus said, Who touched me?When all denied, Peter and they that were with him said, Master, the multitude throng thee and press thee, and sayest thou, Who touched me?

46 And Jesus said, Somebody hath touched me: for I perceive that virtue is gone out of me.

47 And when the woman saw that she was not hid, she came trembling, and falling down before him, she declared unto him before all the people for what cause she had touched him, and how she was healed immediately.

48 And he said unto her, [b]Daughter, be of good comfort: thy faith hath made thee whole;[/b] go in peace.[/quote]

I ask you a THIRD time, what did CHRIST say?

seems as if this "HUMAN THING" is what cleansed her...her faith in Christ to be able to heal her... God's power means little to those that don't have faith... look at all the miracles Christ performed, yet the Pharisees believed not, because they had not faith...if you don't have the faith to believe He is who He is...well, you're up Stick Creek without a paddle.

again, CHRIST, NOT ME, said her FAITH (in Him) made her whole...

oh my...

God bless

[God Conquers]

Let's see....

She had faith before they touched Jesus, or else she wouldn't have done it.

But she was only healed AFTER they TOUCHED him, not before.

An object can represent the manifestation, or completion of faith.
It might not be enough to just "think" something or "think" you have faith. An outward sign or symbol can demonstrate your faith.

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote name='God Conquers' date='Apr 25 2004, 02:42 PM'] Let's see....

She had faith before they touched Jesus, or else she wouldn't have done it.

But she was only healed AFTER they TOUCHED him, not before.

An object can represent the manifestation, or completion of faith.
It might not be enough to just "think" something or "think" you have faith. An outward sign or symbol can demonstrate your faith. [/quote]
Very well put GC!

I like it

[CreepyCrawler]

[quote name='God Conquers' date='Apr 25 2004, 01:42 PM'] Let's see....

She had faith before they touched Jesus, or else she wouldn't have done it.

But she was only healed AFTER they TOUCHED him, not before.

An object can represent the manifestation, or completion of faith.
It might not be enough to just "think" something or "think" you have faith. An outward sign or symbol can demonstrate your faith. [/quote]
well put. that's what i was getting after (at least subconsciously ) but i'm not so good at explaining things, which is why i could never go into the liberal arts!!

lumberjack. you posted texts that said christ said 'your faith has saved you.' but what does that mean? you need to explain a bit more.

her faith could mean her faith as a physical manifestation (her actually moving to touch him) or just simply believing (but then she wouldn't have to touch Him).

why did power move out of Jesus if it was her faith that saved her? what was this power?

and please reconcile the contradictory ideas of "jesus saves" versus "your faith saves." to me it's a contradiction, but to you it's not. please explain why without just pointing to the Bible and saying 'the bible says.'

i read what you posted and i don't understand. thanks.

[the lumberjack]

she had SO MUCH faith in CHRIST, and that she was SO unworthy of Him stopping and dealing with just her, since she had been all but cast out with the lepers, that she thought that if she could only touch HIS garment, she would be healed.

if this is not so, why didn't the crowd thronging our beloved Saviour become instantly healed of everything? when SHE touched Him, He turned and asked "Who touched me?" not before...when she moved and touched Christ out of FAITH.

she touched Christ, yes, but had she touched Him without faith, it would have been for nothing.