Baptism

[Dave]

In the New Testament we learn that under the Old Covenant people were circumcised, but under the New Covenant, circumcision was replaced by baptism, which, it says, NOW SAVES US.

[RandomProddy]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Apr 8 2004, 05:34 PM'] Hehe. good for you. [/quote]
Noooooooo....!

Brother Adam, I just realized I don't know many Baptists (I'm Anglican).

What is the Baptists take on it?

[the lumberjack]

[quote name='Dave' date='Apr 8 2004, 11:50 PM'] In the New Testament we learn that under the Old Covenant people were circumcised, but under the New Covenant, circumcision was replaced by baptism, which, it says, NOW SAVES US. [/quote]
if its a physical work that saves you, and thereby justifies you, and in doing so, also sanctifies you...

then why did Christ come to fulfill the law so we would not be bound by its rituals, traditions, and scrutiny?

and didn't Paul rebuke PETER, THE ROCK (yes, emphasis added), James and John about telling new converts that they shouldn't be circumcised? that only faith could save them?

like...ALL of Galatians 2:
[quote]1 Then fourteen years after I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also.

2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain.

3 But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:

4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:

5 To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.

6 But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man's person:) for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me:

7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, [i]as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;[/i]

8 [b][i][u](For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:)[/u][/i][/b]******

9 And when James, Cephas, and John, [b][i][u]who seemed to be pillars,[/u][/i][/b]***** perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

10 Only they would that we should remember the poor; the same which I also was forward to do.

11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, [b]I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.[/b]

12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.

13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.

14 [b]But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?[/b]

15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,

16 [b][i]Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the [I]works[/i] of the law shall no flesh be justified.[/I][/b]

17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.

19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.[/quote]




Galatians 5
[quote]2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.

3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.[/quote]

Romans 2: 25-29

[quote]25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?

27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfill the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?

28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.[/quote]

and pretty much ALL of chapter 3, but I'll post some good ones that deal with SOLA FIDE too.

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

[quote]25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through [b]faith in his blood[/b], to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

28 Therefore we conclude that a man is [u][b]justified by faith without the deeds of the law.[/b][/u]

29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:

30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.[/quote]

*****---SEEMED to be pillars? if the Catholic Church is built upon peter as the rock and the Catholic church gave us the bible, why would they allow such a DIRECT attack on peter?...thats for another topic though.

******---isn't Paul saying that it was PETER's ministry to speak to the JEWS, who are ALWAYS referred to as "those of the circumcision", and it was PAUL'S ministry to speak to the GENTILES...which would be...just about everyone here....unless that catholic jew is here.

oh and I've underlined and/or bolded and/or italicized anything else that might help in pointing out SOLA FIDE and any other "prostestant" points we're trying to make.

God bless.

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Apr 9 2004, 05:09 AM']if its a physical work that saves you, and thereby justifies you, and in doing so, also sanctifies you...

then why did Christ come to fulfill the law so we would not be bound by its rituals, traditions, and scrutiny?

and didn't Paul rebuke PETER, THE ROCK (yes, emphasis added), James and John about telling new converts that they shouldn't be circumcised?  that only faith could save them?

like...ALL of Galatians 2:





Galatians 5


Romans 2: 25-29



and pretty much ALL of chapter 3, but I'll post some good ones that deal with SOLA FIDE too.

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:



*****---SEEMED to be pillars?  if the Catholic Church is built upon peter as the rock and the Catholic church gave us the bible, why would they allow such a DIRECT attack on peter?...thats for another topic though.

******---isn't Paul saying that it was PETER's ministry to speak to the JEWS, who are ALWAYS referred to as "those of the circumcision", and it was PAUL'S ministry to speak to the GENTILES...which would be...just about everyone here....unless that catholic jew is here.

oh and I've underlined and/or bolded and/or italicized anything else that might help in pointing out SOLA FIDE and any other "prostestant" points we're trying to make.

God bless.[/quote]
LJ,

Why do you think Jesus said in Jn 14:15 "if you love me, keep my commandments"
Mt 19:16-17 "if wish to enter into life, keep commandments"
Jam 2:24 "a man is justified by works and not by faith alone"

It's not a free ticket. Thats what we need the Holy Eucharist for, because that is were God and man unite and He gives us the strenght to carry out our daily duties and virtues. "It is no longer I that lives, but Christ who lives within me." St Paul wrote. God is working through us.

All in all it is God's Divine Mercy that we will be at the beatific vision. But He also gave us a responsiblity to follow His commandments.

Rom 2:5-8 "God will repay each man according to his works"
Col 3:24-25 "knowing that you will receive from the Lord the due payment of the inheritance; be slaves of the Lord Christ. For the wrongdoer will receive recompense for the wrong he committed, and there is no partiality."

Dave is correct in his statement that Baptism replaces circumcision.

Scripture does not contradict Scripture. Many books but One Book. Many authors but One Divine Author the Holy Spirit. Scripture does not argue with Scripture?

God Bless
Jason

[yiannii]

aren't we supposed to have died and risen again with jesus in baptisim? i'm sure i read something like that in the bible.

[Hananiah]

[quote]if its a physical work that saves you, and thereby justifies you, and in doing so, also sanctifies you...

then why did Christ come to fulfill the law so we would not be bound by its rituals, traditions, and scrutiny?[/quote]
You're pitting your own fallible, human logic against God-breathed Scripture. You may see a contradiction between baptismal regeneration and justification by faith, but if Scripture does not (1 Peter 3:21) obviously no contradiction exists.

[quote]and didn't Paul rebuke PETER, THE ROCK (yes, emphasis added), James and John about telling new converts that they shouldn't be circumcised?  that only faith could save them?[/quote]
Yes, St. Paul did rebuke St. Peter, and did say that works of the law could not save them, but he never said that only faith could save them. Rather, St. Paul taught that one was saved by faith working through love.

[Justified Saint]

mulls, I am contesting the belief held by some Protestants that baptism is a public showing of one's faith infront of their church. I don't know what your beliefs of baptism are but they sound similar.

I think your interpretation assumes too much and it seems to kind of beg the question alsmost since Phillip was, as far as we can tell, the only one there and he has to do the baptizing. The eunuch can't baptize himself.

[mulls]

[quote name='Justified Saint' date='Apr 10 2004, 11:57 AM'] mulls, I am contesting the belief held by some Protestants that baptism is a public showing of one's faith infront of their church. I don't know what your beliefs of baptism are but they sound similar.

I think your interpretation assumes too much and it seems to kind of beg the question alsmost since Phillip was, as far as we can tell, the only one there and he has to do the baptizing. The eunuch can't baptize himself. [/quote]
what church did the eunuch belong to that he could publicly show his faith in front of?

[Justified Saint]

Exactly, which is why Protestant baptism has evolved to something unbiblical.

[the lumberjack]

[quote name='Jason' date='Apr 9 2004, 07:17 AM'] LJ,

Why do you think Jesus said in Jn 14:15 "if you love me, keep my commandments"
Mt 19:16-17 "if wish to enter into life, keep commandments"
Jam 2:24 "a man is justified by works and not by faith alone"

It's not a free ticket. Thats what we need the Holy Eucharist for, because that is were God and man unite and He gives us the strenght to carry out our daily duties and virtues. "It is no longer I that lives, but Christ who lives within me." St Paul wrote. God is working through us.

All in all it is God's Divine Mercy that we will be at the beatific vision. But He also gave us a responsiblity to follow His commandments.

Rom 2:5-8 "God will repay each man according to his works"
Col 3:24-25 "knowing that you will receive from the Lord the due payment of the inheritance; be slaves of the Lord Christ. For the wrongdoer will receive recompense for the wrong he committed, and there is no partiality."

Dave is correct in his statement that Baptism replaces circumcision.

Scripture does not contradict Scripture. Many books but One Book. Many authors but One Divine Author the Holy Spirit. Scripture does not argue with Scripture?

God Bless
Jason [/quote]
oh my...

snippets here, selective verses there...

most of it...out of context.

[quote]Thats what we need the Holy Eucharist for, because that is were God and man unite and He gives us the strenght to carry out our daily duties and virtues.[/quote]

and that ^ ??? wow...I'm sorry...I'm indwelt by God's HOLY SPIRIT...and don't need your wafer to get on with my daily duties and virtues. God's Spirit guides me to whatever I need. Repentance, Faith, Action(be doers of the word, not just hearers, deceiving yourselves), Reading the Bible.

Protestants use tradition based on and tested against the Bible.

Catholics use the Bible based on tradition and tested by....well not the individual, thats for sure.

oh. my.

[Archangel]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Apr 11 2004, 12:19 AM']Protestants use tradition based on and tested against the Bible.[/quote]
What is/are the tradition(s) of Protestants?

[the lumberjack]

read your Bible and find out.






















notice how I only listed the Bible.

[Archangel]

Since you didn't provide an example, let me ask you: Do Protestants celebrate [b]Easter[/b]? What traditions do they follow regarding [b]Easter[/b]?

[the lumberjack]

we celebrate the resurrection of our Lord and Saviour, yes.

but we don't just do it one day a year...as MANY C.O.E* catholics do.

and yes, we also do the sunrise service and remember and read what happened...

but we do these things year round also.

*[b]C[/b]hristmas [b]O[/b]r [b]E[/b]aster

[Justified Saint]

How about you engage in the context then lumberjack instead of just complaining about it and then avoiding it? Maybe you need Bruce to help you.