Protestantism Vs. The Bible

[Justified Saint]

Among the "reformed" there is a certain belief that once you are saved you are always saved, or that once a person believes they are given a kind of infallible assurance that they will be in heaven. Using the Bible though, it is better to label this as a [b]false[/b] assurance. Paul himself was probably familiar with this idea and he didn't hesitate to correct those that were so overconfident:

[quote]  Therefore, whoever thinks he is [b]standing secure [/b]should take care [b]not to fall[/b].  1 Corinthians 10:12[/quote]

The Bible does assure as God's adoptive children that we are partakers in the promise of salvation if only we finish the race. Indeed, Paul could boast of no such infallible assurance himself.

[quote]Every athlete exercises discipline in every way. They do it to win a [b]perishable crown[/b], [b]but we an [u]imperishable[/u] one[/b].  Thus I do not run aimlessly; I do not fight as if I were shadowboxing.  No, I drive my body and train it, for fear that, after having preached to others, [b]I myself should be disqualified[/b].  1 Corinthians 9:25-27[/quote]

Such simple and non-critical surface level reading of the texts of scripture have unfortunately led many into this error of eternal security. We know however that salvation is not without [b]condition[/b] and not without perseverance in the faith. The Bible does assure us of this much.

[quote]and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and [b]joint heirs with Christ[/b], [u][b]if only we suffer with him so that we may also be glorified with him[/b][/u].  Romans 8:17[/quote]

[quote]who will repay everyone [b]according to his works[/b]:  [u][b]eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works[/b][/u]  Romans 2:6-7[/quote]

Indeed, we need not flatly contradict the words of scripture to uphold the novel traditions of the Reformers.

[quote]See how a person is [b]justified by works[/b] and [u][b]not by faith alone[/b][/u].  James 2:24[/quote]

Some would have us believe that James meant the exact opposite of what he was saying!

[He carries me]

That's a really interesting point of view! Thanks!

[Justified Saint]

What I find interesting is the often constant deflection by Protestants of the relevant verses that really do talk about salvation that are so threatening to their position. I know Catholics can make the same mistake, but it seems to be something inherent in the Protestant argument. This would be expected though given how foreign the concept of eternal security(the reformed definition of it at least) is to the Bible.

[prov31girl]

Ok, well...upon my initial reading of this post I was definitely in disagreement, but now after having done the research...I'm clueless.

[Circle_Master]

[quote name='Justified Saint' date='Apr 5 2004, 10:14 PM']Among the "reformed" there is a certain belief that once you are saved you are always saved, or that once a person believes they are given a kind of infallible assurance that they will be in heaven.  Using the Bible though, it is better to label this as a [b]false[/b] assurance.  Paul himself was probably familiar with this idea and he didn't hesitate to correct those that were so overconfident:

  Therefore, whoever thinks he is standing secure should take care not to fall.  1 Corinthians 10:12
[/quote]
and what does the next verse say?

No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man.

Read it in context. This first passage is speaking about falling to temptation -- not falling from salvation.

[quote]The Bible does assure as God's adoptive children that we are partakers in the promise of salvation if only we finish the race.  Indeed, Paul could boast of no such infallible assurance himself. 

Every athlete exercises discipline in every way. They do it to win a perishable crown, but we an imperishable one.  Thus I do not run aimlessly; I do not fight as if I were shadowboxing.  No, I drive my body and train it, for fear that, after having preached to others, I myself should be disqualified.  1 Corinthians 9:25-27[/quote]
I'm not sure what you are attempting to say here? He doesn't fear losing salvation, that is something you are placing in the passage yourself. Again, looking at the surrounding context, in a previous verse he says "I do it all for the sake of the gospel, that I may share with them in its blessings." Paul is speaking of the blessings he will receive - the rewards. The blessings can not be 'losing salvation'. That would be a curse.

[quote][b]Such simple and non-critical surface level reading of the texts of scripture (your first two verses were completely ripped out of context)[/b] have unfortunately led many into this error of eternal security.  We know however that salvation is not without [b]condition[/b] and not without perseverance in the faith.  The Bible does assure us of this much.

and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if only we suffer with him so that we may also be glorified with him.  Romans 8:17[/quote]
Yes, a word of encouragement. The suffering we have with him now is worth it because of the hope we have in the future.

[quote]who will repay everyone according to his works:  eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works  Romans 2:6-7[/quote]
Let us finish the line "but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury." The contrast here is in one who is self-seeking verse one who is "God-seeking". The one who is God-seeking will result in those good works as a result of a changed and regenerated heart (John 3:1-21; Gal. 2:20)

[quote]Indeed, we need not flatly contradict the words of scripture to uphold the novel traditions of the Reformers.

See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.  James 2:24[/quote]
Exactly, because it directly before says "You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness"-- and he was called a friend of God." So thus, because of Abraham's [i]true[/i] faith, as opposed to not really believing, it was counted to him as righteousness. The fulfillment of his belief was the works that resulted. And in the same way, Rahab was justified by her action because it completed her heart that was already there.

[quote]Some would have us believe that James meant the exact opposite of what he was saying![/quote]
Imagine that! Don't forget to look at Paul's words which agree with James message when he says in Romans 4:2-4 "For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness." Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due." What works we do have are already due God and worth nothing. All our works are "filthy rags". And so thus, as Abraham believed God and was counted as righteousness, so grace comes down upon us and even gives us the faith to believe in Him who set us free (cf. Ephesians 2:8-9).

I would also encourage you to look at some of these:
Acts 13:48 "And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed." If we are appointed to eternal life, what authority to we have to decry the very act of God?

Romans 9:18-23 "So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory" So God has chosen some for wrath, and some for mercy. Eternally, what option do we have, he has prepared us beforehand either for one or the other?

The question turns instead to, how does this work with a just, loving God?

[Circle_Master]

I would arguably add as well:

What is the entire point of 1 John then if we cannot have assurance? Does not John say "I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life." (1 John 5:13) and yet in his letter never mention a sacrament once? Instead he speaks of love, and he speaks of us having an advocate before the father. The message he gives is one of sacrifice, that now we directly confess our sins to the father knowing that He has already forgiven us, being secure in His hand for all eternity.

[the lumberjack]

[quote][b]Read it in context[/b][/quote]

thank you, circle master.

[hyperdulia again]

Oh my but these people are rude.

[Archangel]

[quote name='Circle_Master' date='Apr 9 2004, 07:38 PM']and what does the next verse say?

No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man.

Read it in context.  This first passage is speaking about falling to temptation -- not falling from salvation.[/quote]
Read it in context. The preceding verses show that we are not guaranteed salvation.

1 I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that our ancestors were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea,
2 and [b]all of them were baptized into Moses[/b] in the cloud and in the sea.
3 All ate the same spiritual food,
4 and [b]all drank the same spiritual drink, for they drank from a spiritual rock[/b] that followed them, and [b]the rock was the Christ[/b].
5 [b]Yet God was not pleased with most of them,[/b] for they were [b]struck down[/b] in the desert.
6 These things happened as [b]examples for us[/b], so that we might not desire evil things, as they did.
7 And do not become idolaters, as some of them did, as it is written, "The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to revel."
8 Let us not indulge in immorality as some of them did, and [b]twenty-three thousand fell[/b] within a single day.
9 Let us not test Christ as some of them did, and [b]suffered death[/b] by serpents.
10 Do not grumble as some of them did, and [b]suffered death[/b] by the destroyer.
11 These things happened to them as an example, and they have been written down as a [b]warning to us[/b], upon whom the end of the ages has come

If man is guaranteed salvation, he could sin all he wants without any consequence. As these verses show, that is not the case.

We must persevere in holiness until the end.

[the lumberjack]

[quote]We must persevere in holiness until the end.[/quote]

and that will get a BIG amen from any true Christian.

[Archangel]

[b]Amen[/b]

[Brother Adam]

Alright. Hey, I'll bite!

[quote]Let us finish the line "but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury." The contrast here is in one who is self-seeking verse one who is "God-seeking". The one who is God-seeking will result in those good works as a result of a changed and regenerated heart (John 3:1-21; Gal. 2:20)[/quote]

One who IS God-seeking at any particular time will bear good fruits in faith. However, we still have free will after our initial salvation to bear good fruits or not. I can cite at least 1,000 examples of those who applied their "head knowledge" to their "heart" and had to go back again and again to be "saved" or flat out deny Christ now. The work of prayer clearly is not the norm for entering into the covenantal family.

The Bible never gives an assurance of final salvation. That is something you slip in there under your own authority to interpret the Bible. The Bible never goes farther than giving the full assurance of the hope of salvation. If we know we are going to persevere to the end we have nothing to work for. Hebrews 6:19

Hebrews 11:1 (ESV)
Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

Hebrews 6:11 (ESV)
And we desire each one of you to show the same earnestness to have the full assurance of hope until the end,

Heaven is considered a blessed hope: Titus 2:13

The Bible never goes beyond that to say "never fear you'll never lose your heavenly inheretance, it can't happen because you prayed and accepted Christ as your Savior".

[quote]Exactly, because it directly before says "You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness"-- and he was called a friend of God." So thus, because of Abraham's true faith, as opposed to not really believing, it was counted to him as righteousness. The fulfillment of his belief was the works that resulted. And in the same way, Rahab was justified by her action because it completed her heart that was already there.[/quote]

Right, faith and works go hand in hand together. Works do not add a meritorious sacrifice for salvation, but are combined with our faith and united up to the cross. It is because of Abrahams work that he is counted righteous. In his work he shows his faith.

Col. 1:24 (ESV)
Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church,


[quote]The question turns instead to, how does this work with a just, loving God? [/quote]

The false understanding here is that the Catholic actually adds their own works to the works of the cross to justify salvation. No works are "added" as in "Oh, if I do 500 good works and send 49.95 to Rome, I'll be saved". On the other hand it is a call bear the burden of our own cross as Christ calls us to and remain in the grace of God. It is about our own participation in the work of Christ. One does not lose salvation because of a "lack" of good works, but through the rejection of God.

So it is as the Bible says: Faith working in love.

I submit this from my website, this is my original writing:

[quote]Works and Belief cannot be separated. Together they are faith. The Catholic does not earn their salvation, but must participate in it.
Col. 1:24 (ESV)
Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church

John 15:1-17
I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. [2] Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. [3] Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. [4] Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. [5] I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. [6] If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. [7] If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. [8] Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. [9] As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. [10] If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. [11] These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full. [12] This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. [13] Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. [14] Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. [15] Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you. [16] Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. [17] These things I command you, that ye love one another.

Matthew 10:38 (ESV)
And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.

Matthew 16:24 (ESV)
Then Jesus told his disciples, "If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.

Mark 8:34 (ESV)
And he called to him the crowd with his disciples and said to them, "If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.

Luke 9:23 (ESV)
And he said to all, "If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.

Romans 1:5
By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

Matthew 7:15-23
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. [16] Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? [17] Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. [18] A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. [19] Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. [20] Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
[21] Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. [22] Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? [23] And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Matthew 7:24-27
Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: [25] And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. [26] And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: [27] And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

Matthew 18:1-9
At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven? [2] And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, [3] And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. [4] Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven. [5] And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me. [6] But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
[7] Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh! [8] Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire. [9] And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

Matthew 25:31-46
When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: [32] And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: [33] And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. [34] Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: [35] For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: [36] Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. [37] Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? [38] When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? [39] Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? [40] And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. [41] Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: [42] For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: [43] I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. [44] Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? [45] Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. [46] And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

1 John 3:21-24
Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God. [22] And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. [23] And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. [24] And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

Luke 8:10-17
And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand. [11] Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. [12] Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. [13] They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. [14] And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection. [15] But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.
[16] No man, when he hath lighted a candle, covereth it with a vessel, or putteth it under a bed; but setteth it on a candlestick, that they which enter in may see the light. [17] For nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest; neither any thing hid, that shall not be known and come abroad.

1 John 3:7
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Hebrews 10:26-29
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, [27] But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. [28] He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: [29] Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

2 Peter 1:5-11
And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; [6] And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; [7] And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. [8] For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. [9] But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. [10] Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: [11] For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

1 Cor. 4:4-5
For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord. [5] Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

1 Cor. 9:27
But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Not even Paul considers himself assured

Romans 11:22
Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. [/quote]

[Bruce S]

[quote]One who IS God-seeking at any particular time will bear good fruits in faith. However, we still have free will after our initial salvation to bear good fruits or not. I can cite at least 1,000 examples of those who applied their "head knowledge" to their "heart" and had to go back again and again to be "saved" or flat out deny Christ now. The work of prayer clearly is not the norm for entering into the covenantal family. [/quote]

Yep. Thus was born the Pentecostal movements, first within the broader Protestant denominations, later, inspired by the Pentecostals, and prayer, within the Catholic Church itself.

Some major players within the Protestant faith, like John Wesley were staunce head Christians first, but "something" was missing.

Only when one moves OUTSIDE of formal religion, and gets a one on one, direct, intimate heart change, a movement of the Holy Spirit, is Christianity really alive in one, until then, it might be real, but it isn't powerful, lifechanging, nor evangelistic.

My two PERSONAL cents on this topic.

[Brother Adam]

I whole-heartedly disagree. I believe it is within true "formal" religion that it becomes solely about God and not about anyone else. It is there, when we meet with God on his terms, we find great change.

[Bruce S]

Brother:

[quote]I whole-heartedly disagree. I believe it is within true "formal" religion that it becomes solely about God and not about anyone else. It is there, when we meet with God on his terms, we find great change.[/quote]

Over and over, we find Jesus FIGHTING the Jews. On what?

Formalized, beauracratic, legalistic, temple laden, theologically obtuse, priest controlled...

Religion.

That is what he had to contend with, and the Catholic Church has just reconstituted a parallel to the Jewish Temple/Priest system. Lock stock and barrel.

Jews - Catholics

High Priest - Pope

Daily Sacrifice Continual Blood Needed - Same

Scribes/Pharisees - Cannon Law/Magisterium

Temple Riches - Vatican Wealth

Temple Guards/Police - Swiss Guards

Holy of Holies - St. Peters

Purgatory - Purgatory

Monastic orders - Monastic Orders

No Sex Essenes - No Sex Religious Orders



I could go on endlessly, but you get the point.

Edited April 10, 2004 by Bruce S