Organized Religion?

[Anomaly]

[quote name='reyb' date='15 October 2009 - 01:38 AM' timestamp='1255581523' post='1985726']
Of course, it should be that way otherwise, it is an insult to God to have an imperfect creation. Before we discuss what is that 'perfect Church'. In your above statement, do you mean perfect Church is needed because God is not (yet) perfect? Or there is no perfect Church at all because God is perfect.
[/quote]It's is not logical that a perfect God is insulted by an imperfect creation. Look around, there are lot's of imperfection around. Is a perfect God dependent upon or needful of perfection, or is God perfection independent of and/or despite imperfection.

[reyb]

[quote name='Anomaly' date='15 October 2009 - 06:24 AM' timestamp='1255605892' post='1985789']
It's is not logical that a perfect God is insulted by an imperfect creation.
[/quote]
The excellence of a creator can be seen thru the quality of his creation. Therefore, if a creator is perfect his creation must be perfect too otherwise his glory is gone. This is why I said ‘imperfect creation’ is an insult to God. Now, in order to be said that a creation is perfect, it only follows that the creator and the creation is One – and that creation is Christ. (because everything that was created by God was made perfect in Christ).

[quote name='Anomaly' date='15 October 2009 - 06:24 AM' timestamp='1255605892' post='1985789']
Look around, there are lot's of imperfection around.
[/quote]
What imperfection you are talking about? Please give example so that we can discuss it. Nevertheless, I am sure you read your Genesis. When God created everything He said ‘Good’. Where is that imperfection?

[quote name='Anomaly' date='15 October 2009 - 06:24 AM' timestamp='1255605892' post='1985789']
Is a perfect God dependent upon or needful of perfection, or is God perfection independent of and/or despite imperfection.
[/quote]
Again, as I have said 'Now, in order to be said that a creation is perfect, it only follows that the creator and the creation is One – and that creation is Christ. (because everything that was created by God was made perfect in Christ). Therefore, the Glory of God is Christ and since Christ is said to be from beginning to End. It only follows that God's Glory or Perfection is from beginning to end too or it should be for all eternity. But at the time that Christ is said to be dead. Where is that Glory?

Now, if anyone is not in Christ...

It is written in Romans 1:18 T[b]he wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
[/b]
Question: Why God is angry if He himself has made it plain?

.

Edited October 15, 2009 by reyb

[Anomaly]

[quote name='reyb' date='15 October 2009 - 11:51 AM' timestamp='1255618282' post='1985822']
The excellence of a creator can be seen thru the quality of his creation. Therefore, if a creator is perfect his creation must be perfect too otherwise his glory is gone. This is why I said ‘imperfect creation’ is an insult to God. Now, in order to be said that a creation is perfect, it only follows that the creator and the creation is One – and that creation is Christ. (because everything that was created by God was made perfect in Christ).
[/quote]There's just no argument against this perfect logic. I concede, but am still confused. Is Donald Trump God's creation?

[reyb]

[quote name='Anomaly' date='15 October 2009 - 10:43 AM' timestamp='1255621417' post='1985846']
There's just no argument against this perfect logic. I concede, but am still confused. Is Donald Trump God's creation?
[/quote]

Of course, because everything was created by God. Now your next question will be (I assume).... Is he a perfect creation?

On sixth day, God created all kinds of animals and in that sixth day, Man was created by God too.

To this day, in our time, we see Donald Trump as a 'man'. Meaning, in our eyes- he is man. But in the eyes of God, it is different because Man was created in His image. Now, the question is - Is he a man in the eyes of God Or an animal? Therefore, we need to summond Donald Trump to answer that question. He is the one who should answer to that kind of question.

[thessalonian]

Paul in Corninthians says "do not neglect the assembly" so in order to have an assembly it would seem their has to be organization of religion. The appointing of deacons and elders in scripture implies that there is someone with the authority to appoint them. Prov 3:5 says trust not in your own understanding. Jer 3:15 says "I will send you shepherds after my own heart who will give you knowledge and understanding.". This implies a hierarchy as well as in Matt 18 when Jesus gives instruction for dealing with conflict in the Church. He says go and confront the offender, the get two or three witnesses and then take it to the Church who will cast him out if he does not change. Again this implies an organization with God's authority. The denominational hodge podge we have today can't be what it is talking about because if a Baptist has a problem with a Lutheran which Church is the one both are going to agree to go before. This passage clearly implies that there is only one Church given the authority spoken of in Matt 28 by Christ in the great commission. We can also look in the book of revelations where everyone is worshipping together in an organized fashion in heaven.

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote name='mommas_boy' date='13 October 2009 - 01:35 PM' timestamp='1255455350' post='1984636']
Hmm. I like this a lot. So, if I understand this correctly, the logic is "One Church, or none".
[/quote]

the truth could be such that it doesn't matter what a single person believes. "Let God be true though every man a liar" as is said in the bible. folks such as what you were quoting, like to think that you have to be catholic to think that murder or adultery is wrong, etc. that's ridiculous. the core teachings we dont need religion for as it's known by all, the rest isn't as important --- even catholics admit to the concious that is written in the minds of everyone. the bible says enough rights and wrongs for foundation, and reason and the spirit fills in the rest. if genuine people disagree about something, it probably isn't something that needs to be definitely taught anyway, not core.
the two main points: core and most important doctrine is known by all, and "Let God be true though every man a liar"

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='reyb' date='14 October 2009 - 05:54 PM' timestamp='1255553644' post='1985326']
I know. I hope there are mormons out there listening to us - The book of Mormons is not in tune with the Epistle of Paul and the Holy Prophets. It is much better to read the Holy Quran along with the Holy Bible.
[/quote]
You can't add or subtract from the Truth. Scriptures [as in the old and new testaments] stand alone.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='reyb' date='15 October 2009 - 01:37 PM' timestamp='1255624652' post='1985871']
Of course, because everything was created by God. Now your next question will be (I assume).... Is he a perfect creation?

On sixth day, God created all kinds of animals and in that sixth day, Man was created by God too.

To this day, in our time, we see Donald Trump as a 'man'. Meaning, in our eyes- he is man. But in the eyes of God, it is different because Man was created in His image. Now, the question is - Is he a man in the eyes of God Or an animal? Therefore, we need to summond Donald Trump to answer that question. He is the one who should answer to that kind of question.
[/quote]the question is to you, not Donald Trump. You made the claim that God is perfect and would be insulted if his creation was imperfect. Did God not create imperfect Donald Trump, but did create a perfect church?

[Sirklawd]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' date='14 October 2009 - 02:28 PM' timestamp='1255544897' post='1985223']
i think it is more about the objection to a "morally superior seperate governing entity that is run like a corporation" that people dislike about "organized religion" not the fact that everyone follows the same rules.

there is a certain amount of mob rule with some organized religion, coupled with the fact that they always think of themselves as morally correct and everybody else as somehow less worthy, many atrocities can be commited.

what one jerk wouldnt do alone, can easily be justified by 200 jerks and a guy telling them that there cause is just and God is on their side. case in point, witch burning, suicide bombings, etc.
[/quote]

This is a fair point. But it more accurately boils down to disliking jerks, organized or otherwise. Just because there happens to be alot of jerks, and they are all being jerks together, doesn't change the fact that being a jerk is wrong - even when the so-called head of the group of jerks says its right. Sure it makes the jerks look bad (and more frustrating to deal with), but luckily we are not the church of bob, or the church of joe, we are the church of Christ. Everything that the magisterium says is right or not comes from Christ, not from us.

This is why the church has lasted. It all goes back to Christ, and in his eyes we are all equal, and under both the same love and same judgment. Sure obedience and respect for our priests/bishops/popes is encouraged, but at the end of the day, especially in today's day in age, moral teachings of the church are easy to learn. So it's easy to find out when a person in leadership is leading himself and other astray.

Edited October 15, 2009 by Sirklawd

[tinytherese]

Darn I'm going to have to wait until fall break is over to make a good reply on here because the theology textbooks I have that would be helpful are at school.

[reyb]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='15 October 2009 - 12:35 PM' timestamp='1255628120' post='1985896']
You can't add or subtract from the Truth. Scriptures [as in the old and new testaments] stand alone.
[/quote]

In my view, the statement ‘do not add or subtract’ does not mean ‘do not add number of books or letter in the your compiled book which you now called Bible’ but rather, do not misinterpret the scripture since erroneous interpretation is either an addition or subtraction to it.

You can see in John 21:25 that there are many books and obviously the number books in your bible (whether protestant or Catholic bible) is not enough. But every book that would be written in John 21:25 is a testimony about Jesus and his doing. Therefore, if book 1 is a written testimony of witness 1 regarding what Jesus did to the writer 1, and book 2 is a written testimony of witness 2 regarding what Jesus did to the writer 2,. …and book n is a written testimony of witness n regarding what Jesus did to the writer n. Therefore, there is no addition or addition even if we take all of them as ‘scripture’ since all of them is testifying about Christ. While on the other hand, just like I previously said, an ‘erroneous interpretation’ is either an addition or subtraction to the written testimony.

Now, regarding the Book of Mormon – obviously, it is not written by a true witness.

[reyb]

[quote name='Anomaly' date='15 October 2009 - 03:07 PM' timestamp='1255637232' post='1986014']
the question is to you, not Donald Trump. You made the claim that God is perfect and would be insulted if his creation was imperfect. Did God not create imperfect Donald Trump, but did create a perfect church?
[/quote]

It is better if you will point that kind of question to yourself. Why not asked yourself, 'am I a perfect creation of God.? Please, do not consider it as an insult but that is the way it should be if you are really seeking the Truth because knowing God is the same as knowing your true self.

Nevertheless, regarding your above inquiry,about God and his relation to his 'imperfect Creation'. As I have said before, after this day which is called 'today' which is also called 'the day of salvation' is gone - anybody who was found living in the dark - meaning caught under the power of deceiving spirit - 'God's wrath will surely come' because God is insulted. But, this 'today' is not yet over because up to this day God is still working although it is written God rested on seventh day.

[eagle_eye222001]

[quote name='reyb' date='15 October 2009 - 07:49 PM' timestamp='1255650548' post='1986123']
[b]In my view,[/b] the statement ‘do not add or subtract’ does not mean ‘do not add number of books or letter in the your compiled book which you now called Bible’ but rather, do not misinterpret the scripture since erroneous interpretation is either an addition or subtraction to it. [/quote]

That's your interpretation. I hope it not an "erroneous interpretation."


[quote]...

Now, regarding the Book of Mormon – obviously, it is not written by a true witness.
[/quote]

Why not?

[reyb]

[quote name='eagle_eye222001' date='16 October 2009 - 12:34 AM' timestamp='1255671256' post='1986344']
That's your interpretation. I hope it not an "erroneous interpretation."
[/quote]

Yes, I commit a mistake. The statement ‘[b]in my view[/b]’ should be [b]‘By the Spirit of Christ, he made it known to me that[/b]…..’ .
Anyway, I will clarify this issue.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='reyb' date='15 October 2009 - 11:21 PM' timestamp='1255659664' post='1986241']
It is better if you will point that kind of question to yourself. Why not asked yourself, 'am I a perfect creation of God.? Please, do not consider it as an insult but that is the way it should be if you are really seeking the Truth because knowing God is the same as knowing your true self.

Nevertheless, regarding your above inquiry,about God and his relation to his 'imperfect Creation'. As I have said before, after this day which is called 'today' which is also called 'the day of salvation' is gone - anybody who was found living in the dark - meaning caught under the power of deceiving spirit - 'God's wrath will surely come' because God is insulted. But, this 'today' is not yet over because up to this day God is still working although it is written God rested on seventh day.
[/quote]Good job at not answering the question. Instead of asking me to ask myself a question, simply answer the question. If God requires and needs perfection or he will be insulted, why is there imperfection in creation around us?