pat22 Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 So the first poeple were created by god. They had a perfect life, the animals obeyed them, no sickness, ECT... but they sinned and all that went away, then god promised a savior. so after jesus came why didn't we get all that back? why did the desendents(such as us) of the first poeple have to pay for their ansestors crimes? and how come they didn't ever get a chance to re-earn all that was lost? please dont quote the CCC or something like that unless its CONVINCING arguement or beleivable. i need logic arguements, not faith ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 Even though Adam and Eve were created perfect and sinless, they were still created with the ability to choose - they were both capable of either obeying or disobeying God. We know that if we sin, we disobey God, and we will be punished for our disobedience (that punishment can come in many different forms, mind you). Adam and Eve disobeyed God, therefore introducing sin into the world. While Christ took those sins upon Himself and died for the sake of our salvation, He did not take away our ability to say "yes" or "no" to Him. In fact, we can argue that He made it easier to say "yes" because God came down to earth and made Himself fully known to us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 (edited) I want to focus on more specific questions now. [quote name='pat22' date='08 October 2009 - 03:07 PM' timestamp='1255028866' post='1981047'] why did the desendents(such as us) of the first poeple have to pay for their ansestors crimes? and how come they didn't ever get a chance to re-earn all that was lost? [/quote] Even though we did not commit the same sin Adam and Eve committed, the fact is that they introduced sin into the world and by doing so, changed the world and humanity. After we sin, we ask God for forgiveness - or, for more serious sins, we go to Confession - and our souls are cleansed. However, just because we are free of the sin[s] committed, does not mean that the sin never existed or never hurt anyone else. That is why we cannot "re-earn" Eden. Sin can and will be forgiven if we ask for forgiveness with a contrite heart, but the "effects" of our sin still lingers. Edited October 8, 2009 by HisChildForever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pat22 Posted October 8, 2009 Author Share Posted October 8, 2009 [quote name='HisChildForever' date='08 October 2009 - 03:43 PM' timestamp='1255030985' post='1981080'] I want to focus on more specific questions now. Even though we did not commit the same sin Adam and Eve committed, the fact is that they introduced sin into the world and by doing so, changed the world and humanity. After we sin, we ask God for forgiveness - or, for more serious sins, we go to Confession - and our souls are cleansed. However, just because we are free of the sin[s] committed, does not mean that the sin never existed or never hurt anyone else. That is why we cannot "re-earn" Eden. Sin can and will be forgiven if we ask for forgiveness with a contrite heart, but the "effects" of our sin still lingers. [/quote] i resent that i should get a chance to choose for myself. we dont have free will if we never get to choose between good and evil. if we are born with sin.... well... whats totally contradictory. how can you beleive that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 [quote name='pat22' date='08 October 2009 - 03:50 PM' timestamp='1255031425' post='1981088'] i should get a chance to choose for myself. [/quote] You [i]do[/i] have that chance. We all do. [quote] we dont have free will if we never get to choose between good and evil. if we are born with sin.... well... whats totally contradictory. how can you beleive that? [/quote] We are born with Original Sin - you can say that we "inherited" Original Sin from Adam and Eve, our ancestors. Through Baptism, we are cleansed of this sin. Original Sin is not the same thing as regular sin (a Church Scholar can explain this one to you). And whether an individual receives Baptism or not, they still can choose between good and evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 [quote name='HisChildForever' date='08 October 2009 - 02:56 PM' timestamp='1255031803' post='1981097'] You [i]do[/i] have that chance. We all do. We are born with Original Sin - you can say that we "inherited" Original Sin from Adam and Eve, our ancestors. Through Baptism, we are cleansed of this sin. Original Sin is not the same thing as regular sin (a Church Scholar can explain this one to you). And whether an individual receives Baptism or not, they still can choose between good and evil. [/quote] It's somewhat misleading to say that we inherited sin though. We inherited the effects of sin, but sin itself is personal. We inherited a world corrupted by Adam's and Eve's sin, which has made us in a disordered way inclined towards personal sin of our own, but be did not inherit personal sin of an ancestor. At least I am pretty sure that's a more accurate explanation. Sorry, don't want to step on your toes. It's one thing I've been really focussing on understanding lately, and while I'm still not particularly good by any stretch of the imagination, I think I've got a rudimentary grasp of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimR-OCDS Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 (edited) >[i]i should get a chance to choose for myself [/i] You do choose for yourself. >[i]we dont have free will if we never get to choose between good and evil. if we are born with >sin.... well... whats totally contradictory. how can you beleive that? [/i] You can choose between good and evil. However, what we lack because of our fallen nature, is the ability to choose only good. Jim Edited October 8, 2009 by JimR-OCDS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pat22 Posted October 8, 2009 Author Share Posted October 8, 2009 [quote name='HisChildForever' date='08 October 2009 - 03:56 PM' timestamp='1255031803' post='1981097'] You [i]do[/i] have that chance. We all do. We are born with Original Sin - you can say that we "inherited" Original Sin from Adam and Eve, our ancestors. Through Baptism, we are cleansed of this sin. Original Sin is not the same thing as regular sin (a Church Scholar can explain this one to you). And whether an individual receives Baptism or not, they still can choose between good and evil. [/quote] but i DONT have the same choice as adam and eve. i was born into there damnation. i was born into a world of suffering Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimR-OCDS Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 (edited) [quote name='pat22' date='08 October 2009 - 05:19 PM' timestamp='1255033166' post='1981117'] but i DONT have the same choice as adam and eve. i was born into there damnation. i was born into a world of suffering [/quote] You were born into a world of suffering, but depending on your choice, you can be brought into a world of eternal joy and happiness. Again, the choice is yours. Jim Edited October 8, 2009 by JimR-OCDS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 [quote name='pat22' date='08 October 2009 - 03:19 PM' timestamp='1255033166' post='1981117'] but i DONT have the same choice as adam and eve. i was born into there damnation. i was born into a world of suffering [/quote] You were born into a corrupted world, but it's always been your choice whether or not to participate in any sort of sin. Nobody is forced to sin, it's just that everybody freely chooses to do so. Except Mary. and Jesus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='08 October 2009 - 04:14 PM' timestamp='1255032882' post='1981110'] It's somewhat misleading to say that we inherited sin though. We inherited the effects of sin, but sin itself is personal. We inherited a world corrupted by Adam's and Eve's sin, which has made us in a disordered way inclined towards personal sin of our own, but be did not inherit personal sin of an ancestor. At least I am pretty sure that's a more accurate explanation. [/quote] I think that's a more accurate explanation of sin, but not Original Sin. While we didn't inherit the particular sin Adam and Eve committed, that first sin has "stained" us in some way. I know there's a term for the sin we commit by choice (the term distinguishes between that and Original Sin), but I can't think of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 I do not believe that anyone is born sinful. Adam, by his sin, made himself and all his descendants mortal, but mortality is not a punishment of God; instead, it is simply the consequence of Adam's failure, as the head of the human family, to rise to divine status through grace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 [quote name='HisChildForever' date='08 October 2009 - 03:29 PM' timestamp='1255033792' post='1981137'] I think that's a more accurate explanation of sin, but not Original Sin. While we didn't inherit the particular sin Adam and Eve committed, that first sin has "stained" us in some way. I know there's a term for the sin we commit by choice (the term distinguishes between that and Original Sin), but I can't think of it. [/quote] That's where it's misleading though, in the term itself. Original sin refers to the corruption that the sin of our first parents brought into the world. The disordering of nature, that draws us towards sin, but in and of itself it is not sin. At least that's how I understand it so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='08 October 2009 - 04:38 PM' timestamp='1255034310' post='1981153'] I do not believe that anyone is born sinful. [/quote] Tell that to some parents I've known. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pat22 Posted October 8, 2009 Author Share Posted October 8, 2009 my point is that the first poeple were born into a perfect world and never HAD to know pain or suffering. we are never even given that choice. where is the mercy in having to live a life of suffering for someone else's wrong doings? thats very far from just Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now