I Stumped Your Scholars

[Brother Adam]

I asked this in the Q&A forum:

[quote]What writings or decrees in the Catholic Church are considered infallible in nature?

Are any writings or decrees considered to have all of the same attributes as scripture? Are any held higher than scripture? [/quote]


and I got this.


[quote]...[/quote]

[cmotherofpirl]

lol
everybody's computer must be on the blink today.

[homeschoolmom]

I told you, Brother Adam... HS_Dad tried to find a list of the *infallable* stuff... he couldn't find it all in one place. I don't think the Vatican website has a link to "all of the infallable teachings" I think it's pretty hard to distinguish what is and what isn't considered infallable.

[cmotherofpirl]

[i]Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma[/i] by Ott

[CatholicCrusader]

OK, well since they didn't make an answer, they answer is this. Everything the Church teaches infallibly is "held higher" (your words) than Scripture, that is, Scripture by itself without an interpreter. However, Scripture itself is something infallibly written by the Church (by God, just as is all Dogma); therefore, they hold the same place insofar as each are from God.

God bless.

[Jake Huether]

The point of infallibility isn't so that we can "find the Catholic Teaching that is...". Infalibility works in such a way that we don't need to ask "which Teachings do we follow?". We, the sheep, have the light burden of Christ, where we don't need to wory. The Spirit will lead the Church into ALL Truth!

We first must understand that the Church is infallible in her teachings on faith and morals. So you first job would be to divide up the docs into "faith and morals" vs. "other".

All the "others" are fallible. But the fact that they have nothing to do with faith and morals makes it irrelivant. Who cares if the Church taught that the world was flat (I don't think she ever did, but just go along with it for the point)? Does the knowledge of the shape of the Earth save us? Are we better friends of God who know that i = Sqrt(-1)?

Unity in the Church is important, don't get me wrong. If we are to all to kneel or stand at a certain time during Mass it is important that we follow this. It expresses our unity. But are we damned to hell for not kneeling when we are supposed to? Or is it a sin to stand when we aught to be sitting? NO!


So Bro., Catholics can't accurately give you the doc list of "infallible" Teachings. Infallibility doesn't carry a certain stamp on it. It isn't a distinct phrase or word that makes it so. If it has to do with faith and morals, and the Church officially Teaches it, then it is infallible.


I'm not sure I helped at all. But at least I tried. LOL.

[theculturewarrior]

For more information, Adam, try...[i]The Sources of Catholic Dogma[/i] by Denzinger.

[Brother Adam]

Okay, but we know that a priest, a deacon, and other leaders can accidentily or on purpose say something against Church teaching.

Let's say that a priest says that the Church teaches post-mil. (its actually a-mill)- this means that the words of the priest are not infallible. We also know that documents can be produced by clergy that may contain an error. I guess it's -how do we know what the Church actually teaches?

[cmotherofpirl]

INFALLIBILITY. Freedom from error in teaching the universal Church in matters of faith or morals. As defined by the First Vatican Council, "The Roman Pontiff, when he speaks ex cathedra – that is, when in discharge of the office of pastor and teacher of all Christians, by virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine regarding faith or morals to be held by the universal Church, by the divine assistance promised to him in Blessed Peter, is possessed of that infallibility with which the divine Redeemer willed that his Church should be endowed in defining doctrine regarding faith or morals; and therefore such definitions are irreformable of themselves, and not in virtue of consent of the Church" (Denzinger 3074).

The bearer of the infallibility is every lawful Pope as successor of Peter, the Prince of the Apostles. But the Pope alone is infallible, not others to whom he delegates a part of his teaching authority, for example, the Roman congregations.

The object of his infallibility is his teaching of faith and morals. This means especially revealed doctrine like the Incarnation. But it also includes any nonrevealed teaching that is in any way connected with revelation.

The condition of the infallibility is that the Pope speaks ex cathedra. For this is required that: 1. he have the intention of declaring something unchangeably true; and 2. he speak as shepherd and teacher of all the faithful with the full weight of his apostolic authority, and not merely as a private theologian or even merely for the people of Rome or some particular segment of the Church of God.

The source of the infallibility is the supernatural assistance of the Holy Spirit, who protects the supreme teacher of the Church from error and therefore from misleading the people of God.

As a result, the ex cathedra pronouncements of the Pope are unchangeable "of themselves," that is, not because others in the Church either first instructed the Pope or agree to what he says. (Etym. Latin in-, not + fallibilis; from fallere, to deceive: infallibilis, not able to deceive, or err.)

This is a dogmatic teaching:
The dogma of the Holy Trinity

253 The Trinity is One. We do not confess three Gods, but one God in three persons, the "consubstantial Trinity".83 The divine persons do not share the one divinity among themselves but each of them is God whole and entire: "The Father is that which the Son is, the Son that which the Father is, the Father and the Son that which the Holy Spirit is, i.e. by nature one God."84 In the words of the Fourth Lateran Council (1215), "Each of the persons is that supreme reality, viz., the divine substance, essence or nature."85

254 The divine persons are really distinct from one another. "God is one but not solitary."86 "Father", "Son", "Holy Spirit" are not simply names designating modalities of the divine being, for they are really distinct from one another: "He is not the Father who is the Son, nor is the Son he who is the Father, nor is the Holy Spirit he who is the Father or the Son."87 They are distinct from one another in their relations of origin: "It is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds."88 The divine Unity is Triune.

255 The divine persons are relative to one another. Because it does not divide the divine unity, the real distinction of the persons from one another resides solely in the relationships which relate them to one another: "In the relational names of the persons the Father is related to the Son, the Son to the Father, and the Holy Spirit to both. While they are called three persons in view of their relations, we believe in one nature or substance."89 Indeed "everything (in them) is one where there is no opposition of relationship."90 "Because of that unity the Father is wholly in the Son and wholly in the Holy Spirit; the Son is wholly in the Father and wholly in the Holy Spirit; the Holy Spirit is wholly in the Father and wholly in the Son."91

It is about faith and morals so it is infallible.

[Brother Adam]

I'm not asking my question right.

[cmotherofpirl]

Adam a definition of a dogma would be infallible, that's why I suggested [i]Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma[/i] by Ott.

[Hananiah]

[quote]What writings or decrees in the Catholic Church are considered infallible in nature?[/quote]
Canons of Ecumenical councils, which have been ratified by the Pope, and ex cathedra decrees, are infallible. If you ever see a list of anathemas, you're looking at infallible writing. If you ever hear language like "we decree, define, and pronounce" preceded by an invokation of the Holy Spirit and an appeal to apostolic authority, you're looking at infallible writing.

[quote]Are any writings or decrees considered to have all of the same attributes as scripture? Are any held higher than scripture?[/quote]
No, infallible pronouncments of the magesterium are not [i]theopnuestos[/i] (God-breathed) in the same way Scripture is. The Holy Spirit is the primary author of Scripture, whereas the human writers are merely instruments. In contrast, humans are the primary authors of magesterial documents, and the role of the Holy Spirit is, actively, granting the author the grace to arrive at knowledge of the truth, and, passively, protecting him from error.

Edited April 5, 2004 by Hananiah

[PhatPhred]

I can take the easy ones:

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Apr 5 2004, 05:42 PM']Are any writings or decrees considered to have all of the same attributes as scripture?[/quote]
No.

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Apr 5 2004, 05:42 PM']Are any held higher than scripture?[/quote]
No.

Unfortunately, "yes or no" questions don't do a very good job of elucidating the Church's teaching on Sacred Scripture. However, [url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19651118_dei-verbum_en.html"]Vatican II's Dogmatic Constitution [i]DEI VERBUM[/i] on Divine Revelation (THIS IS AN HTML LINK!!!)[/url] does an excellent job of explaining how Sacred Scripture and sacred tradition fit in the overall scheme of divine revelation. You would do well to read it fully to better understand the issues you bring up.

Here are some random quotes, taken out of context, to whet your appetite to read the whole document:

[quote name='DEI VERBUM']And so the apostolic preaching, [b]which is expressed in a special way in the inspired books[/b], was to be preserved by an unending succession of preachers until the end of time.[/quote]

[quote name='DEI VERBUM']Hence there exists a close connection and communication between sacred tradition and Sacred Scripture. For both of them, flowing from the same divine wellspring, in a certain way merge into a unity and tend toward the same end. For [b]Sacred Scripture [u]is[/u] the word of God inasmuch as it is consigned to writing under the inspiration of the divine Spirit[/b], while sacred tradition [u]takes[/u] the word of God entrusted by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit to the Apostles, and hands it on to their successors in its full purity, so that led by the light of the Spirit of truth, they may in proclaiming it preserve this word of God faithfully, explain it, and make it more widely known.[/quote]

[quote name='DEI VERBUM']But the task of authentically interpreting the word of God, whether written or handed on, has been entrusted exclusively to the living teaching office of the Church, whose authority is exercised in the name of Jesus Christ.  [b]This teaching office [u]is not above the word of God[/u], but serves it, teaching only what has been handed on, listening to it devoutly, guarding it scrupulously and explaining it faithfully[/b] in accord with a divine commission and with the help of the Holy Spirit, it draws from this one deposit of faith everything which it presents for belief as divinely revealed.

It is clear, therefore, [b]that sacred tradition, Sacred Scripture and the teaching authority of the Church[/b], in accord with God's most wise design, [b]are so linked and joined together that one cannot stand without the others, and that all together and each in its own way under the action of the one Holy Spirit contribute effectively to the salvation of souls[/b].[/quote]

[quote name='DEI VERBUM']Those divinely revealed realities which are contained and presented in Sacred Scripture have been committed to writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. For holy mother Church, relying on the belief of the Apostles (see John 20:31; 2 Tim. 3:16; 2 Peter 1:19-20, 3:15-16), holds that [b]the books of both the Old and New Testaments in their entirety, with all their parts, are sacred and canonical because written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, they have God as their author and have been handed on as such to the Church herself[/b].  In composing the sacred books, God chose men and while employed by Him they made use of their powers and abilities, so that with Him acting in them and through them, they, as true authors, consigned to writing everything and only those things which He wanted.

[b]Therefore, since everything asserted by the inspired authors or sacred writers must be held to be asserted by the Holy Spirit, it follows that the books of Scripture must be acknowledged as teaching solidly, faithfully and without error that truth which God wanted put into sacred writings for the sake of salvation.[/b] Therefore "all Scripture is divinely inspired and has its use for teaching the truth and refuting error, for reformation of manners and discipline in right living, so that the man who belongs to God may be efficient and equipped for good work of every kind" (2 Tim. 3:16-17, Greek text).[/quote]

Edited April 5, 2004 by PhatPhred

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Apr 5 2004, 04:22 PM'] I'm not asking my question right. [/quote]
I'm interested! Whats the right question?

God Bless Bro.
Jason

[Brother Adam]

I don't know, but those were the right answers. thanks.