Catholocism Versus The Bible

[the lumberjack]

definition of dumb: someone ignorant to the facts, therefore unable to act upon them

definition of stupid: someone IGNORING the facts, therefore unable to act upon their consequence(s)

I must be pretty stupid then...

[Bruce S]

[quote]Infallible definitions therefore do not sit alongside the Scriptures as a second body of teaching. Rather, the Scriptures themselves cannot explain or teach themselves. In other words, the Bible --- inasmuch as it is a book--- is not a living, breathing teacher. The Living, Breathing Teacher is God Himself, and specifically we say that the Holy Spirit who "inspires" (literally, "breathes into") the Scriptures is the same one who helps the Church to interpret the Scriptures.

[b]Infallible teachings are thus teachings which ultimately come out of the Bible, and have been taught by the grace of the Holy Spirit, and are thus confirmed not to be wrong.[/b]  [/quote]

Mumbo Jumbo

Show me the Immaculate Conception, which is DEFINATELY ruled as INFALLIBLY taught, confirmed, and dogma now.

The above statement said "come from the bible"

You can "allude" that Mary was Immaculately Conceived, and "infer" that she was without sin. Yet you cannot say it CAME FROM the scriptures.

It did NOT.

It came out of TRADITION. Thus tradition is more or less SUPERIOR to the scripture here.

As I said, when in doubt, the Magisterium overrules everything, scripture and tradition too are SUBORDINATE

Papal Infallibility on Faith and Morals was "DEVELOPED" over time, and only ACCEPTED as completely true in 1870

I can go on and on, but this more or less make an andequate case.

[Archangel]

The same can be said of the Holy Trinity. It is not explicity defined in the bible either. Nor is the term.

[the lumberjack]

could you define the word God as used in Genisis 1?

Elohim.

go ahead, please.

[Bruce S]

[quote]The same can be said of the Holy Trinity. It is not explicity defined in the bible either. Nor is the term.
[/quote]

Agreed.

But we don't HAVE dogma's, so we believe it is so, but we don't have to believe it, although just about everyone but the cults do.

See the difference? We USE scripture to understand, we do not make scripture the basis for temporal power, and to enhance our denominations right to rule over the world?

The Catholic Church extracts from scripture, takes those understandings, and uses them as a basis for a nation, ruled by a King, with Dukes, and Knights that are power on earth, and the subjects are to OBEY, without recourse to independent thought.

[Bruce S]

Pope Gregory VII (1073-85) :
"The pope cannot make a mistake."

Paschal II: (1099-1118)
"Whoever does not agree with the Apostolic See
is without doubt a heretic."


Pope Innocent IV (1243-54):
described himself as
"the bodily presence of Christ."
( presumably by a kind of
transubstantiation at his election)

Pope Boniface VIII (1294-1303) :
"Every human being must do
as the pope tells him."

Pope Leo XIII (1878-1903):
"We hold upon this earth
the place of God Almighty."
( Encyclical Letter, June 20, 1894 )

[Bruce S]

[quote]According to Matthew 23:1-14: 
       
Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, "The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat; therefore, do whatever they teach you and follow it; [b]but do not do as they do, [i][B]for they do not practice what they teach. [/b][/i] They tie up heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on the shoulders of others; but they themselves are unwilling to lift a finger to move them.  They do all their deeds to be seen by others;[/b] for they make their phylacteries broad and their fringes long. [b] They love to have the place of honor at banquets and the best seats in the synagogues, and to be greeted with respect in the marketplaces, and to have people call them rabbi.[/b] 
    
But you are not to be called 'Rabbi', [color=red][b]for you have one teacher,[/b][/color] and you are all students.  [b]And call no one your 'father' on earth, for you have one Father -- the one in heaven.  Nor are you to be called 'instructors', [color=red]for you have one instructor, the Messiah.[/color]  The [/b]greatest among you will be your servant.  All who exalt themselves will be humbled, and all who humble themselves will be exalted. "[/quote]

Edited April 11, 2004 by Bruce S

[the lumberjack]

don't you HAVE to kiss the pope's ring? and at one time, even his foot? didn't kings and royalty as such demand that show of respect?

[quote]Also included in this part of Roman Catholic theology is kissing the Pope's foot, a ceremony borrowed from the Persian Court and continued over 1000 years (CATHOLIC DICTIONARY OF THEOLOGY, Vol. III, p. 187). Some theologians use Isaiah 49:23 as a warrant for this practice.

POST VATICAN II

In the New Mass, this is called the Rite of Peace. Besides greetings among the clergy, members of the congregation exchange wishes of peace and love in words an gestures of their own choosing. This indiscriminate greeting is claimed by Traditionalists as one proof of the invalidity of the New Mass.

Kissing the Pope's foot has been discontinued.[/quote]

why? is it because it was a tradition that came from...another kingdom?

PERSIA??? whoa.

[quote]At any rate, yes, it was the custom and long long time ago to kiss the foot of the Pope. This was a sign of humility and submission to the authority of the Successor of Peter, the Vicar of Christ, the one to whom Christ Himself gave His own full authority over the Church He founded for our salvation. Considering who the person of the Pope is and what kind of gift Christ has given us in the papacy, I should think we have adequate reason to happily kiss his foot.

However, that sort of thing went out a long time ago. I don't recall exactly when we stopped doing this. It might have been after the time of Pius X. If memory serves, during the Pontificate of Pius XII I think that men who were being made Cardinals did still kiss the Pope's foot when they were receiving the "red hat". But, that is certainly not done now.[/quote]

hmmm....curious.

would you guys kiss my foot?

I guess not...after all, I am not your king that spoonfeeds you thru my princes and dukes and what not.

oh well.

God bless.

[Bruce S]

[quote]How can Jesus possibly smile on Popes wearing robes and crowns that even the most powerful leaders in the world would find embarrassing in their pompous arrogance?  [b]The papal "tiara" isn't just a crown, it's three crowns in one!  [/b]And is there a head of state anywhere in the twentieth century who had the arrogance to have eight mere mortals carrying them about in royal "sedias"?  Did you know that in Pius XII's day, it was considered an exclusive privilege for Cardinals to be allowed to kiss the Pope's foot and hand?  Mere Archbishops only kissed the Pope's foot and knee; and Abbots only got to kiss his foot.  [/quote]

[img]http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/tiara-2.jpg[/img]

Come on, Jesus WEARING this thing? That is utterly inconceivable!

[ironmonk]

dairy,

Again, please read the bible a few times and take notes before trying to argue it...

St John 20:21
(Jesus) said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you."
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit.
23 [u][b]Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained[/b][/u]."
The Holy Spirit guides me to see the above verse to mean that "As the Father has sent Jesus, Jesus sends His Disciples"... Why did the Father send Jesus?.... To forgive us our sins. I also see that in verse 23, pretty clearly.


St James 5:14
Is anyone among you sick? He should summon the presbyters of the church, and they should pray over him and anoint (him) with oil in the name of the Lord,
15 and the prayer of faith will save the sick person, and the Lord will raise him up. If he has committed any sins, he will be forgiven.
16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The fervent prayer of a righteous person is very powerful.


Presbyters....aka...Priests....


Acts 19:18
And many that believed came, and confessed, and shewed their deeds.


1 Tim 6:12
Compete well for the faith. Lay hold of eternal life, to which you were called when you made the noble confession in the presence of many witnesses.

St. Matt 28:18 Then Jesus approached and said to them, "All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit,
20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age."

Matt. 18:18
"Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven"



And as far as Faith, works, and salvation goes...

Faith without works will not get you to Heaven. If you have faith and remain doing wicked things without trying to repent, you will go to hell. Read these verses. This is truth.


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St. Matt 16:24
19 Then Jesus said to his disciples, "Whoever wishes to come after me must deny himself, 20 take up his cross, and follow me.
25 For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. 21
26 What profit would there be for one to gain the whole world and forfeit his life? Or what can one give in exchange for his life?
27 22 For the Son of Man will come with his angels in his Father's glory, and then he will repay everyone according to his conduct.
Works are very important.



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St. Matt 25:31
14 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne,
32 and all the nations 15 will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
33 He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34 Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me,
36 naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.'
37 Then the righteous 16 will answer him and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?
38 When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you?
39 When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?'
40 And the king will say to them in reply, 'Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.'
41 17 Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
43 a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.'
44 18 Then they will answer and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?'
45 He will answer them, 'Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.'
46 And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
You must do good works.


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St. Luke 12:47

That servant who knew his master's will but did not make preparations nor act in accord with his will shall be beaten severely;
48 and the servant who was ignorant of his master's will but acted in a way deserving of a severe beating shall be beaten only lightly. Much will be required of the person entrusted with much, and still more will be demanded of the person entrusted with more.
If you know the will of the Father, and do not do it, you will be punished.



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2 Corin 11:15
So it is not strange that his ministers also masquerade as ministers of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.

We will be judged by our deeds, our works. Preachers who say that all you need is faith and it doesn't matter what sins you do to get to heaven, are lying to you. The want your money.



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St. Matt 10:22
You will be hated by all because of my name, but whoever endures to the end 10 will be saved.

No one will be saved until the end. We must endure to the end, meaning we must do good works and have faith.



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St. Matt 24:13
But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved.

We are not saved until the end.



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St. Matt 7:1
1 2 "Stop judging, that you may not be judged.
2 For as you judge, so will you be judged, and the measure with which you measure will be measured out to you.
3 Why do you notice the splinter in your brother's eye, but do not perceive the wooden beam in your own eye?

We will be judged on how we judge others.



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St. John 3:19
9 And this is the verdict, that the light came into the world, but people preferred darkness to light, because their works were evil.
20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come toward the light, so that his works might not be exposed.
21 But whoever lives the truth comes to the light, so that his works may be clearly seen as done in God.

Works are important.



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James 2:14
6 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day,
16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well," but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it?
17 So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 Indeed someone might say, "You have faith and I have works." Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.
19 You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble.
20 Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.
23 Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called "the friend of God."
24 See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25 And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route?
26 For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

This makes if very clear that faith without works is worthless.



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Eph 2:2
in which you once lived following the age of this world, 4 following the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the disobedient.
3 All of us once lived among them in the desires of our flesh, following the wishes of the flesh and the impulses, and we were by nature children of wrath, like the rest.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of the great love he had for us,
5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, brought us to life with Christ 5 (by grace you have been saved),
6 raised us up with him, and seated us with him in the heavens in Christ Jesus,
7 that in the ages to come he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God;
9 it is not from works, so no one may boast.
10 For we are his handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for the good works that God has prepared in advance, that we should live in them.

So many people just look at verses 7, 8, & 9.... and take it out of context. When you look at 2-6 AND 10, it puts it into it's proper context.

In verses 2-6, it condemns the bad works.

In verse 9, the focus is so that 'none may boast', as the Pharisees did in the times before Christ.

In verse 10, it tells us the we need to live in "good works".




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God Bless, Love in Christ & the Blessed Ever Virgin Mary,
ironmonk

[Jericho923]

HE IS RISEN!!!!

[ironmonk]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Apr 9 2004, 06:21 AM'] you know, the thing is, I am here to try to learn...and I read everything you post and not just read it, but I look into it.

I go to a bunch of catholic sites and look it up and cross check it and junk...and most of what I get are either circles or very vague, stretched out, mostly out of context ties...

circles.

and if catholics didn't have all the documents that you had at your disposal, you wouldn't be able to defend what you believe, I'm not saying this to TRY to be mean, but like I've said before...its a literal OCEAN of legal jargon and paperwork and "developing" and more jargon for one to TRY to learn even the BASICS of the catholic faith. And the magesterium? I doubt that they'd be able to memorize everything, and be able to reproduce it all with the vague accuracy it has now.

where as the protestants would be able to defend what we believe so long as there is two or three strong brothers in the Lord led by the Holy Ghost...with only the Bible.

God bless. [/quote]
You might want to read the Early Church Fathers... they knew alot... men like St. Ignatius of Antioch, St. Augustine, St. Jerome, etc...

Why do you think there are so many documents spanning 2000 years?

Because the Catholic Church is the One Faith established by Christ.

The New Testament came from Catholic Documents. All the Churches of the Bible were Catholic Churches. They kept all the letters.

Ephesus (Ephesians - A Catholic Church) From 27 B.C. till a little after A.D. 297, Ephesus was the capital of the proconsular province of Asia, a direct dependency of the Roman Senate. Though unimportant politically, it was noted for its extensive commerce. Many illustrious persons were born at Ephesus
It was through the Jews that Christianity was first introduced into Ephesus. The original community was under the leadership of Apollo (I Cor., i, 12). They were disciples of St. John the Baptist, and were converted by Aquila and Priscilla. Then came St. Paul, who lived three years at Ephesus to establish and organize the new church; he was wont to teach in the schola or lecture-hall of the rhetorician Tyrannus (Acts, xix, 9) and performed there many miracles..
The Church of Ephesus was committed to his disciple, St. Timothy, a native of the city (I Tim., 1, 3; II Tim., 1, 18; iv, 12). The Epistle of St. Paul to the Esphesians was not perhaps addressed directly to them; it may be only a circular letter sent by him to several churches. The sojourn and death of the Apostle St. John at Ephesus are not mentioned in the New Testament, but both are attested as early as the latter part of the second century by St. Irenaeus (Adv. Haer., III, iii, 4), Polycrates, Bishop of Ephesus (Eusebius, Hist. Eccl., V, xx1), Clement of Alexandria, the "Acta Joannis", and a little earlier by St. Justin and the Montanists.
About 110 St. Ignatius of Antioch, having been greeted at Smyrna by messengers of the Church of Ephesus, sent to it one of his seven famous epistles. During the first three centuries, Ephesus was, next to Antioch, the chief centre of Christianity in Asia Minor. In the year 190 its bishop, St. Polycrates, held a council to consider the paschal controversy and declared himself in favour of the Quartodeciman practice; nevertheless the Ephesian Church soon conformed in this particular to the practice of all the other Churches. It seems certain that the sixth canon of the Council of Nicaea (325), confirmed for Ephesus its ecclesiastical jurisdiction over the whole "diocese" or civil territory of Asia Minor.
Ephesus was taken in 655 and 717 by the Arabs. Later it became the capital of the theme of the Thracesians. During the Iconoclastic period two bishops of Ephesus suffered martyrdom, Hypatius in 735 and Theophilus in the ninth century.

Corinth (Corinthians - Another Catholic Church)
St. Paul preached successfully at Corinth, where he lived in the house of Aquila and Priscilla (Acts, xviii, 1), where Silas and Timothy soon joined him. After his departure he was replaced by Apollo, who had been sent from Ephesus by Priscilla. The Apostle visited Corinth at least once more. He wrote to the Corinthians in 57 from Ephesus, and then from Macedonia in the same year, or in 58. The famous letter of St. Clement of Rome to the Corinthian church (about 96) exhibits the earliest evidence concerning the ecclesiastical primacy of the Roman Church. Besides St. Apollo, Lequien (II, 155) mentions forty-three bishops: among them, St. Sosthenes (?), the disciple of St. Paul, St. Dionysius; Paul, brother of St. Peter, Bishop of Argos in the tenth century; St. Athanasius, in the same century; George, or Gregory, a commentator of liturgical hymns. Corinth was the metropolis of all Hellas. After the Byzantine emperors had violently withdrawn Illyricum from Papal direction, Corinth appears as a metropolis with seven suffragan sees; at the beginning of the eighteenth century there were only two united in one title. Since 1890 Corinth, for the Greeks, has been a simple bishopric, but the first in rank, Athens being the sole archbishopric of the Kingdom of Greece. Lequien (III, 883) mentions twenty Latin prelates from 1210 to 1700, the later ones being only titular. But Eubel (I, 218; II, 152) mentions twenty-two archbishops for the period from 1212 to 1476.

Antioch - Just read all of St Ignatius writings i've posted here, A very Catholic Church

Since the city of Antioch was a great centre of government and civilization, the Christian religion spread thither almost from the beginning. Nicolas, one of the seven deacons in Jerusalem, was from Antioch (Acts, vi, 5). The seed of Christ's teaching was carried to Antioch by some disciples from Cyprus and Cyrene, who fled from Jerusalem during the persecution that followed upon the martyrdom of St. Stephen (Acts, xi, 19, 20). They preached the teachings of Jesus, not only to the Jewish colony but also to the Greeks or Gentiles, and soon large numbers were converted. The mother-church of Jerusalem having heard of the occurrence sent Barnabas thither, who called Saul from Tarsus to Antioch (ib., 22, 25). There they laboured for a whole year with such success that the followers of Christ were acknowledged as forming a distinct community, "so that at Antioch the disciples were first named Christians" (ib., 26). Their charity was exhibited by the offerings sent to the famine-stricken brethren in Judea. St. Peter himself came to Antioch (Gal., ii, 11), probably about the year 44, and according to all appearances lived there for some time. The community of Antioch, being composed in part of Greeks or Gentiles, had views of its own on the character and conditions of the new religion. There was a faction among the disciples in Jerusalem which maintained that the Gentile converts to Christianity should pass first through Judaism by submitting to the observances of the Mosaic law, such as circumcision and the like. This attitude seemed to close the gates to the Gentiles, and was strongly contested by the Christians of Antioch. Their plea for Christian liberty was defended by their leaders, Paul and Barnabas, and received full recognition in the Apostolic Council of Jerusalem (Acts, xv, 22- 32). Later on St. Paul defends this principle at Antioch even in the face of Peter (Gal., ii, 11). Antioch became soon a centre of missionary propaganda. It was thence that St. Paul and his companions started on their journey for the conversion of the nations. The Church of Antioch was also fully organized almost from the beginning. It was one of the few original churches which preserved complete the catalogue of its bishops. The first of these bishops, Evodius, reaches back to the Apostolic age. At a very early date the Christian community of Antioch became the central point of all the Christian interests in the East. After the fall of Jerusalem (A. D. 70) it was the real metropolis of Christianity in those countries.

In the meantime the number of Christians grew to such an extent, that in the first part of the fourth century Antioch was looked upon as practically a Christian city. Many churches were erected there for the accommodation of the worshippers of Christ. In the fourth century there was still a basilica called "the ancient" and "apostolic". It was probably one of the oldest architectural monuments of Christianity; an ancient tradition maintained that it was originally the house of Theophilus, the friend of St. Luke (Acts, i, 1). There were also sanctuaries dedicated to the memory of the great Apostles, Peter, Paul, and John. Saint Augustine speaks (Sermo, ccc., n. 5) of a "basilica of the holy Machabees" at Antioch, a famous shrine from the fourth to the sixth century (Card. Rampolla, in "Bessarione", Rome, 1897-98, I-II). Among the pagan temples dedicated to Christian uses was the celebrated Temple of Fortune (Tychæion). In it the Christians of Antioch enshrined the body of their great bishop and martyr Ignatius. There was also a martyrium or memorial shrine of Babylas, a third-century martyr and bishop of Antioch, who suffered death in the reign of Decius. For the development of Christian domestic architecture in the vicinity of the great city see De Vogué, "Architecture civile et religieuse de la Syrie Centrale" (Paris, 1867-77), and the similar work of Howard Crosby Butler (New York, 1903). The very important monastic architecture of the vicinity will be described under SIMEON STYLITES and BYZANTINE ARCHITECTURE. The Emperor Constantine (306-337) built a church there, which he adorned so richly that it was the admiration of all contemporaries (St. John Chrys., "Hom. in Ep. ad Eph.", X, 2; Eus., "Vita Const.", III, 50, and "De laud. Const.", c. 9). It was completely pillaged, but not destroyed, by Chosroes in 540. the Church of Antioch showed itself worthy of being the metropolis of Christianity in the east. In the ages of persecution it furnished a very large quota of martyrs, the bishops setting the example. It may suffice to mention St. Ignatius at the beginning of the second century; Asclepiades under Septimius Severus (193-211); and Babylas under Decius (249-251). It produced also a number of great men, who either in writing or otherwise distinguished themselves in the service of Christianity. The letters of the afore-mentioned St. Ignatius are very famous. Theophilus wrote in the latter part of the second century an elaborate defense and explanation of the Christian religion. In later ages there were such men as Flavian, who did much to reunite the Christians of Antioch divided by the Arian disputes; St. John Chrysostom, afterwards Bishop of Constantinople, and Theodoret, afterwards Bishop of Cyrus in Syria. Several heresies took their rise in Antioch. In the third century Paul of Samosata, Bishop of Antioch, professed erroneous doctrines. Arianism had its original root not in Alexandria but in the great Syrian city, Antioch; Nestorianism sprang from it through Theodore of Mopsuestia and Nestorius of Constantinople. A peculiar feature of Antiochene life was the frequency of conflict between the Jews and the Christians; several grievous seditions and massacres are noted by the historians from the end of the fourth to the beginning of the seventh century (Leclercq, Dict. d'arch. et de liturg. chrét., I, col 2396).

Rome (Central for Christianity; Peter was the leader of Christians when Jesus went to heaven, authority given to him by Jesus... Peter was the Bishop of Rome; Peter's replacement, would have the same authority as Peter)
The significance of Rome lies primarily in the fact that it is the city of the pope. The Bishop of Rome, as the successor of St. Peter, is the Vicar of Christ on earth and the visible head of the Catholic Church. Rome is consequently the centre of unity in belief, the source of ecclesiastical jurisdiction and the seat of the supreme authority which can bind by its enactments the faithful throughout the world.It is here that the history of the Church can be traced from the earliest days, from the humble beginnings in the Catacombs to the majestic ritual of St. Peter's. At every turn one comes upon places hallowed by the deaths of the martyrs, the lives of innumerable saints, the memories of wise and holy pontiffs. From Rome the bearers of the Gospel message went out to the peoples of Europe and eventually to the uttermost ends of the earth. To Rome, again, in every age countless pilgrims have thronged from all the nations, and especially from English-speaking countries. Ancient tradition assigns to the year 42 the first coming of St. Peter to Rome, though, according to the pseudo-Clementine Epistles, St. Barnabas was the first to preach the Gospel in the Eternal City. Under Claudius (c. A.D. 50), the name of Christ had become such an occasion of discord among the Hebrews of Rome that the emperor drove them all out of the city, though they were not long in returning. About ten years later Paul also arrived, a prisoner, and exercised a vigorous apostolate during his sojourn. The Christians were numerous at that time, even at the imperial Court. The burning of the city -- by order of Nero, who wished to effect a thorough renovation -- was the pretext for the first official persecution of the Christian name. Moreover, it was very natural that persecution, which had been occasional, should in course of time have become general and systematic; hence it is unnecessary to transfer the date of the Apostles' martyrdom from the year 67, assigned by tradition, to the year 64 (see PETER, SAINT; PAUL, SAINT). Domitian's reign took its victims both from among the opponents of absolutism and from the Christians; among them some who were of very exalted rank -- Titus Flavius Clemens, Acilius Glabrio (Cemetery of Priscilla), and Flavia Domitilla, a relative of the emperor. It must have been then, too, that St. John, according to a very ancient legend (Tertullian), was brought to Rome. .




Ignatius of Antioch

"Not as Peter and Paul did, do I command you [Romans]. They were apostles, and I am a convict" (Letter to the Romans 4:3 [A.D. 110])

"Ignatius . . . to the church also which holds the presidency, in the location of the country of the Romans, worthy of God, worthy of honor, worthy of blessing, worthy of praise, worthy of success, worthy of sanctification, and, because you hold the presidency in love, named after Christ and named after the Father" (Letter to the Romans 1:1 [A.D. 110]).

"You [the church at Rome] have envied no one, but others you have taught. I desire only that what you have enjoined in your instructions may remain in force" (ibid., 3:1). .

Irenaeus

"Matthew also issued among the Hebrews a written Gospel in their own language, while Peter and Paul were evangelizing in Rome and laying the foundation of the Church" (Against Heresies, 3, 1:1 [A.D. 189])

"It is possible, then, for everyone in every church, who may wish to know the truth, to contemplate the tradition of the apostles which has been made known to us throughout the whole world. And we are in a position to enumerate those who were instituted bishops by the apostles and their successors down to our own times, men who neither knew nor taught anything like what these heretics rave about" (Against Heresies 3:3:1 [A.D. 189]).

"But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the successions of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul—that church which has the tradition and the faith with which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. For with this Church, because of its superior origin, all churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world. And it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition" (ibid., 3:3:2).

Tertullian

"Was anything withheld from the knowledge of Peter, who is called ‘the rock on which the Church would be built’ [Matt. 16:18] with the power of ‘loosing and binding in heaven and on earth’ [Matt. 16:19]?" (Demurrer Against the Heretics 22 [A.D. 200]).

"[T]he Lord said to Peter, ‘On this rock I will build my Church, I have given you the keys of the kingdom of heaven [and] whatever you shall have bound or loosed on earth will be bound or loosed in heaven’ [Matt. 16:18–19]. . . . What kind of man are you, subverting and changing what was the manifest intent of the Lord when he conferred this personally upon Peter? Upon you, he says, I will build my Church; and I will give to you the keys" (Modesty 21:9–10 [A.D. 220]).

Pope Clement I

"Through countryside and city [the apostles] preached, and they appointed their earliest converts, testing them by the Spirit, to be the bishops and deacons of future believers. Nor was this a novelty, for bishops and deacons had been written about a long time earlier. . . . Our apostles knew through our Lord Jesus Christ that there would be strife for the office of bishop. For this reason, therefore, having received perfect foreknowledge, they appointed those who have already been mentioned and afterwards added the further provision that, if they should die, other approved men should succeed to their ministry" (Letter to the Corinthians 42:4–5, 44:1–3 [A.D. 80]).

Jerome

"I follow no leader but Christ and join in communion with none but your blessedness [Pope Damasus I], that is, with the chair of Peter. I know that this is the rock on which the Church has been built. Whoever eats the Lamb outside this house is profane. Anyone who is not in the ark of Noah will perish when the flood prevails" (Letters 15:2 [A.D. 396]).

...

"The church here is split into three parts, each eager to seize me for its own. . . . Meanwhile I keep crying, ‘He that is joined to the chair of Peter is accepted by me!’ . . . Therefore, I implore your blessedness [Pope Damasus I] . . . tell me by letter with whom it is that I should communicate in Syria" (ibid., 16:2).

Augustine

"There are many other things which rightly keep me in the bosom of the Catholic Church. The consent of the people and nations keeps me, her authority keeps me, inaugurated by miracles, nourished in hope, enlarged by love, and established by age. The succession of priests keep me, from the very seat of the apostle Peter (to whom the Lord after his resurrection gave charge to feed his sheep) down to the present episcopate [of Pope Siricius]" (Against the Letter of Mani Called "The Foundation" 5 [A.D. 397]).

"[On this matter of the Pelagians] two councils have already been sent to the Apostolic See [the bishop of Rome], and from there rescripts too have come. The matter is at an end; would that the error too might be at an end!" (Sermons 131:10 [A.D. 411]).




From www.Britannica.com

[b]Roman Catholicism
Encyclopædia Britannica Article [/b]


Christian church characterized by its uniform, highly developed doctrinal and organizational structure that traces its history to the Apostles of Jesus Christ in the 1st century AD. Along with Eastern Orthodoxy and Protestantism, it is one of the three major branches of Christianity.


About AD 95 Clement, bishop of Rome, in his letter to the church in Corinth ( First Letter of Clement ), expressed the view that bishops succeeded the Apostles.

originally titled Letter To The Church Of Corinth; also called I Clement, a letter to the Christian Church in Corinth from the church of Rome, traditionally ascribed to and almost certainly written by St. Clement I of Rome, c. AD 96. It is extant in a 2nd-century Latin translation, which is possibly the oldest surviving Latin Christian work. Regarded as scripture by many 3rd- and 4th-century Christians, it was transmitted in manuscripts with a sermon known as the Second Letter of Clement, written c. 125–140 by an unknown author.

Concerned about a dispute in the Corinthian Church in which younger members had deposed older men from the ministry, the letter opposed the deposition and discussed the orders of the ministry, which it asserted were established by the Apostles and were the will of God. The First Letter of Clement was an important influence on the development in the church of the episcopal orders of the ministry (bishops, priests, deacons), and it has been used to support the doctrine of the apostolic succession, according to which bishops represent a direct, unbroken line of succession from the Apostles.



The idea of apostolic succession appears in the writings of Irenaeus, a Church Father who died about 202. Against the Gnostics (dualistic sects that maintained that salvation is not from faith but from some esoteric knowledge) Irenaeus urged that the Catholic teaching was verified because a continuous succession of teachers, beginning with the Apostles, could be demonstrated. In the 3rd and 4th centuries problems of schism within churches were resolved by appealing to the power of orders (i.e., the powers a person has by reason of his ordination either as deacon, priest, or bishop) transmitted by the imposition of hands through a chain from the Apostles. Orders in turn empowered the subject to receive the power of jurisdiction (i.e., the powers an ordained person has by reason of his office). In disputes between Rome and the Eastern churches the idea of apostolic succession was centred in the Roman pontiff, the successor of Peter; it will be observed that this goes beyond the idea of collegial succession. Apostolic authority is defined as the power to teach, to administer the sacraments, and to rule the church. Apostolic succession in the Roman Catholic understanding is validated only by the recognition of the Roman pontiff; and the Roman Catholic Church understands the designation “apostolic” in the creed as referring to this threefold power under the primacy of the Roman pontiff.

The idea of apostolic succession appears in the writings of Irenaeus, a Church Father who died about 202. Against the Gnostics (dualistic sects that maintained that salvation is not from faith but from some esoteric knowledge) Irenaeus urged that the Catholic teaching was verified because a continuous succession of teachers, beginning with the Apostles, could be demonstrated. In the 3rd and 4th centuries problems of schism within churches were resolved by appealing to the power of orders (i.e., the powers a person has by reason of his ordination either as deacon, priest, or bishop) transmitted by the imposition of hands through a chain from the Apostles. Orders in turn empowered the subject to receive the power of jurisdiction (i.e., the powers an ordained person has by reason of his office). In disputes between Rome and the Eastern churches the idea of apostolic succession was centred in the Roman pontiff, the successor of Peter; it will be observed that this goes beyond the idea of collegial succession. Apostolic authority is defined as the power to teach, to administer the sacraments, and to rule the church. Apostolic succession in the Roman Catholic understanding is validated only by the recognition of the Roman pontiff; and the Roman Catholic Church understands the designation “apostolic” in the creed as referring to this threefold power under the primacy of the Roman pontiff.




God Bless,
ironmonk

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Apr 11 2004, 09:35 AM'] dairy,

Again, please read the bible a few times and take notes before trying to argue it...

St John 20:21
(Jesus) said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you."
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit.
23 [u][b]Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained[/b][/u]."
The Holy Spirit guides me to see the above verse to mean that "As the Father has sent Jesus, Jesus sends His Disciples"... Why did the Father send Jesus?.... To forgive us our sins. I also see that in verse 23, pretty clearly.


St James 5:14
Is anyone among you sick? He should summon the presbyters of the church, and they should pray over him and anoint (him) with oil in the name of the Lord,
15 and the prayer of faith will save the sick person, and the Lord will raise him up. If he has committed any sins, he will be forgiven.
16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The fervent prayer of a righteous person is very powerful.


Presbyters....aka...Priests....


Acts 19:18
And many that believed came, and confessed, and shewed their deeds.


1 Tim 6:12
Compete well for the faith. Lay hold of eternal life, to which you were called when you made the noble confession in the presence of many witnesses.

St. Matt 28:18 Then Jesus approached and said to them, "All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit,
20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age."

Matt. 18:18
"Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven"



And as far as Faith, works, and salvation goes...

Faith without works will not get you to Heaven. If you have faith and remain doing wicked things without trying to repent, you will go to hell. Read these verses. This is truth.


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St. Matt 16:24
19 Then Jesus said to his disciples, "Whoever wishes to come after me must deny himself, 20 take up his cross, and follow me.
25 For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. 21
26 What profit would there be for one to gain the whole world and forfeit his life? Or what can one give in exchange for his life?
27 22 For the Son of Man will come with his angels in his Father's glory, and then he will repay everyone according to his conduct.
Works are very important.



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St. Matt 25:31
14 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne,
32 and all the nations 15 will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
33 He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34 Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me,
36 naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.'
37 Then the righteous 16 will answer him and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?
38 When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you?
39 When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?'
40 And the king will say to them in reply, 'Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.'
41 17 Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
43 a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.'
44 18 Then they will answer and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?'
45 He will answer them, 'Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.'
46 And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
You must do good works.


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St. Luke 12:47

That servant who knew his master's will but did not make preparations nor act in accord with his will shall be beaten severely;
48 and the servant who was ignorant of his master's will but acted in a way deserving of a severe beating shall be beaten only lightly. Much will be required of the person entrusted with much, and still more will be demanded of the person entrusted with more.
If you know the will of the Father, and do not do it, you will be punished.



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2 Corin 11:15
So it is not strange that his ministers also masquerade as ministers of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.

We will be judged by our deeds, our works. Preachers who say that all you need is faith and it doesn't matter what sins you do to get to heaven, are lying to you. The want your money.



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St. Matt 10:22
You will be hated by all because of my name, but whoever endures to the end 10 will be saved.

No one will be saved until the end. We must endure to the end, meaning we must do good works and have faith.



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St. Matt 24:13
But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved.

We are not saved until the end.



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St. Matt 7:1
1 2 "Stop judging, that you may not be judged.
2 For as you judge, so will you be judged, and the measure with which you measure will be measured out to you.
3 Why do you notice the splinter in your brother's eye, but do not perceive the wooden beam in your own eye?

We will be judged on how we judge others.



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St. John 3:19
9 And this is the verdict, that the light came into the world, but people preferred darkness to light, because their works were evil.
20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come toward the light, so that his works might not be exposed.
21 But whoever lives the truth comes to the light, so that his works may be clearly seen as done in God.

Works are important.



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James 2:14
6 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day,
16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well," but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it?
17 So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 Indeed someone might say, "You have faith and I have works." Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.
19 You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble.
20 Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.
23 Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called "the friend of God."
24 See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25 And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route?
26 For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

This makes if very clear that faith without works is worthless.



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Eph 2:2
in which you once lived following the age of this world, 4 following the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the disobedient.
3 All of us once lived among them in the desires of our flesh, following the wishes of the flesh and the impulses, and we were by nature children of wrath, like the rest.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of the great love he had for us,
5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, brought us to life with Christ 5 (by grace you have been saved),
6 raised us up with him, and seated us with him in the heavens in Christ Jesus,
7 that in the ages to come he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God;
9 it is not from works, so no one may boast.
10 For we are his handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for the good works that God has prepared in advance, that we should live in them.

So many people just look at verses 7, 8, & 9.... and take it out of context. When you look at 2-6 AND 10, it puts it into it's proper context.

In verses 2-6, it condemns the bad works.

In verse 9, the focus is so that 'none may boast', as the Pharisees did in the times before Christ.

In verse 10, it tells us the we need to live in "good works".




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God Bless, Love in Christ & the Blessed Ever Virgin Mary,
ironmonk [/quote]
Ironmonk back :wave:

Welcome back brother

God Bless
jason

[Justified Saint]

[quote]you know, the thing is, I am here to try to learn...and I read everything you post and not just read it, but I look into it.

I go to a bunch of catholic sites and look it up and cross check it and junk...and most of what I get are either circles or very vague, stretched out, mostly out of context ties...

circles.

and if catholics didn't have all the documents that you had at your disposal, you wouldn't be able to defend what you believe, I'm not saying this to TRY to be mean, but like I've said before...its a literal OCEAN of legal jargon and paperwork and "developing" and more jargon for one to TRY to learn even the BASICS of the catholic faith. And the magesterium? I doubt that they'd be able to memorize everything, and be able to reproduce it all with the vague accuracy it has now.

where as the protestants would be able to defend what we believe so long as there is two or three strong brothers in the Lord led by the Holy Ghost...with only the Bible.

God bless. [/quote]

Excuse me while I go laugh.



Anyways, Happy Easter!

[the lumberjack]

[quote]Why do you think there are so many documents spanning 2000 years?[/quote]

that don't do a very good job of agreeing with one another...and sometimes get buried in order to "maintain" the ONENESS of Catholic doctrine.

laugh Jason...water off a duck's back.