Catholocism Versus The Bible

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote]On second thought, there is a purgatory, it is here, I'm in purgatory now, I hope putting up with Jason counts, it should, or I could just wear a brown scapula, and not worry about him any longer....grin. [/quote] hehe!

What are you so upset about Bruce? There is no in between, I posted this somewhere else but what you call "live a little" is 100% out of the question.
You are either 100% for Christ and His Church or your not!

In Rev. Christ said He will spew the lukewarm out of His mouth. I follow the Teaching of the Catholic Church and am obedient to the Pope and Love my God where He is Truly Present in the Holy Eucharist period.

Anyway man don't get so upset, if you come over here with jabs at the Catholic Church, I'm going to give witness anyway I can! I won't let you twist the Truth like you've been trying too.

God Bless
Jason

Oh ya Mark 10:15
" Amen I say to you, [b]whoever does not accept the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it."[/b] hmmmm?????

Well anyway
peace

[Bruce S]

[quote]haha, and just to think, bruce is tame on phatmass, i know from experience.
[/quote]

Grin, you know it Brother...grin. But, you have to be gentle with the Phatts, they are good people, they really are, so I love them all.

I wonder how long they would survive against some of the animals we have on our side, the gorilla's of doc dumps, Protestant version.

Hey, lets see if they will start a section were ONLY countervailing doc dumps are used, you will not be allowed to actually talk, just toss back and forth pre written apologetics tracts. Perhaps even have macro's written to speed things up, back and forth, back and forth, all down without human interaction, at the speed of light.

Let the autoresponders fight it out, and whatever side wins we all convert to the winning denomination?

This is my favorite guy, old Gus, from Tripp'n the Rift, on Sci Fi, he is a robot who wants to know God, but because he isn't 'alive' is just jealous of all living creatures. Go GUS!! Oh, and to compound poor old Gus's problems, he has latent homosexual tendencies that he has to fight off ...

[img]http://www.scifi.com/tripping/characters/gus/images/feature_gus.jpg[/img]

Yeah, I'm rooting for Gus to win this one for our side, I wonder who they will put up for their side, perhaps the electronic brain from the Popemobile? grin....

[Paladin D]

[quote name='Bruce S' date='Apr 9 2004, 05:24 PM']
Grin, you know it Brother...grin. But, you have to be gentle with the Phatts, they are good people, they really are, so I love them all.

I wonder how long they would survive against some of the animals we have on our side, the gorilla's of doc dumps, Protestant version. [/quote]
There are quite a few animals who are taming themselves on Phatmass right now, but since we're called by Christ to act in love well... doing so will not make things better.

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote name='Bruce S' date='Apr 9 2004, 05:24 PM']
Grin, you know it Brother...grin. But, you have to be gentle with the Phatts, they are good people, they really are, so I love them all.

I wonder how long they would survive against some of the animals we have on our side, the gorilla's of doc dumps, Protestant version.

Hey, lets see if they will start a section were ONLY countervailing doc dumps are used, you will not be allowed to actually talk, just toss back and forth pre written apologetics tracts. Perhaps even have macro's written to speed things up, back and forth, back and forth, all down without human interaction, at the speed of light.

Let the autoresponders fight it out, and whatever side wins we all convert to the winning denomination?

This is my favorite guy, old Gus, from Tripp'n the Rift, on Sci Fi, he is a robot who wants to know God, but because he isn't 'alive' is just jealous of all living creatures. Go GUS!! Oh, and to compound poor old Gus's problems, he has latent homosexual tendencies that he has to fight off ...

[img]http://www.scifi.com/tripping/characters/gus/images/feature_gus.jpg[/img]

Yeah, I'm rooting for Gus to win this one for our side, I wonder who they will put up for their side, perhaps the electronic brain from the Popemobile? grin.... [/quote]
Bruce your supposed to be childlike not childish.

Mary Our Mother I give to you Bruce I put him into your hands. Throw your mantle of purity over him and protect him. I pray this in the Spirit through the Son to the Father. Amen

Mary conceived without sin pray for us all and this website phatmass! Amen

St. Micheal defend us.

God Bless you Bruce.

[Bruce S]

[quote]Mary Our Mother I give to you Bruce I put him into your hands. Throw your mantle of purity over him and protect him. I pray this in the Spirit through the Son to the Father. Amen

Mary conceived without sin pray for us all and this website phatmass! Amen

St. Micheal defend us.

God Bless you Bruce.[/quote]

Jason.

Who did JESUS say to pray TO, and WHO is the intermediator between US and God again?

Reread YOUR prayers.

[Livin_the_MASS]

Your in good hands!

God Bless You
Jason

[Paladin D]

[quote name='Bruce S' date='Apr 9 2004, 07:26 PM']
Jason.

Who did JESUS say to pray TO, and WHO is the intermediator between US and God again?

Reread YOUR prayers. [/quote]
Bruce, have you learned nothing? Praying to someone in heaven is the same as asking someone on Earth to intercede for you. Only difference is, we must pray to Mary, and the Saints so they can hear us, so then they can intercede for us.

We in no way, exhault them above God. They are not meditators, only Christ is. Mary and the Saints intercede for us, they go to Christ, and since Christ is the only meditator... God the Son gives the prayers to God the Father.

[Hananiah]

[quote name='Bruce S' date='Apr 9 2004, 06:26 PM'] Who did JESUS say to pray TO, and WHO is the intermediator between US and God again? [/quote]
Jesus prayed to the Father. Jesus is the "one true mediator between God and man." However, the angels and the glorified saints play the roles of subordinate mediators of prayer in the heavenly liturgy (Rev 5:8, 8:3-4).

[the lumberjack]

but didn't GOD Himself make it pretty illegal and dangerous (EG, SAUL) to talk to, summon, or call upon the dead?

with the Lord or not, the angels can not intercede for us, the angel with John said himself, "I am but a servant like you"

and the only saints that can intercede for us are those here on earth...the ones in the church.

whatever your catholic paperwork and prewritten prayers say, ([b][color=red]But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions[/color][/b]...Jesus, Matt 6:7) the bible says we should not counsel with the dead.

[Livin_the_MASS]

38 And Mary said: Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it done to me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.

39 And Mary rising up in those days, went into the hill country with haste into a city of Juda.

40 And she entered into the house of Zachary, and saluted Elizabeth.

41 And it came to pass, that when Elizabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the infant leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:

42[b] And she cried out with a loud voice, and said: Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.[/b]

43 [b]And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?[/b]

44 [b]For behold as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy.[/b]

45 And blessed art thou that hast believed, because those things shall be accomplished that were spoken to thee by the Lord.

46 And Mary said: My soul doth magnify the Lord.

47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

48 [b][u]Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid; for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.[/b][/u]

49 Because he that is mighty, hath done great things to me; and holy is his name.

50 And his mercy is from generation unto generations, to them that fear him.

51 He hath shewed might in his arm: he hath scattered the proud in the conceit of their heart.

52 He hath put down the mighty from their seat, and hath exalted the humble.

53 He hath filled the hungry with good things; and the rich he hath sent empty away.

54 He hath received Israel his servant, being mindful of his mercy:

55 As he spoke to our fathers, to Abraham and to his seed for ever.

56 And Mary abode with her about three months; and she returned to her own house.


He prayes three times in His agony!


36 Then Jesus came with them into a country place which is called Gethsemani; and he said to his disciples: Sit you here, till I go yonder and pray.

37 And taking with him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, he began to grow sorrowful and to be sad.

38 Then he saith to them: My soul is sorrowful even unto death: stay you here, and watch with me.

39 [b]And going a little further, he fell upon his face, praying, and saying: My Father, if it be possible, let this chalice pass from me. Nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.[/b]

40 And he cometh to his disciples, and findeth them asleep, and he saith to Peter: What? Could you not watch one hour with me?

41 Watch ye, and pray that ye enter not into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh weak.

42 [b]Again the second time[/b], he went and prayed, saying: My Father, if this chalice may not pass away, but I must drink it, thy will be done.

43 And he cometh again and findeth them sleeping: for their eyes were heavy.

44 And leaving them, he went again: [b]and he prayed the third time,[/b] saying
the selfsame word.

45 Then he cometh to his disciples, and saith to them: Sleep ye now and take your rest; behold the hour is at hand, and the Son of man shall be betrayed into the hands of sinners.

46 Rise, let us go: behold he is at hand that will betray me.

Mary said all generations shall call Her blessed we do that with every Hail Mary.

Jesus prayed the same prayer three times in His agony!

Actually we have a responsibility to pray for Holy Souls in purgatory. Not sure I get what your getting at that praying for the dead is vain repetitions.

God Bless
Jason

[Bruce S]

[quote]Paladin:

We in no way, exhault them above God. [b]They are not meditators, [/b]only Christ is. Mary and the [b]Saints intercede for us[/b], they go to Christ, and since Christ is the only meditator... God the Son gives the prayers to God the Father.
[/quote]

Doubletalk.

Either you pray with the HELP of the dead, [Saul and Witch of Endor] or you do not. If you ASK a dead person [and don't try to link the dead with the living, that won't fly] for INTERCESSION, it is MEDIATION.

Both interpose another ENTITY between YOU and God, other than Jesus.

In DIRECT violation of the command of Jesus that HE is the ONLY mediator, and men come ONLY to the Father [God] through ME.

IF Jesus wanted you to USE dead people as mediators, there would be verses supporting the fact that He wanted that to be the way we should pray.

Thus, the Lord's Prayer would go like this:

[i]"Saint X, who art in heaven, blessed be thy life, and may God listen to you, since I'm not worthy to pray directly to Him.

Gods Kingdom come, His will be done, after you intercede for me in heaven.

Give us this day, our daily bread, give us apparitions to instruct us after I'm gone.

And forgive us our tresspasses as we forgive others, lead us to study the lives of the dead who our leaders determine are better Christians than the rest of us.

Lead us not into temptation, have Medjugore and Lourdes, and Fatima show us your will and how to be your servants.

Deliver us from evil, and those who don't follow Rome especially, for they are evil, give our leaders the power to antathemize them, consign them to oblivion."[/i]

He did NOT structure prayer that way.

He DID structure, in HIS instruction set on how to pray, a DIRECT link to God, with HIM as the sole intermediary.

Sheesh.

Edited April 10, 2004 by Bruce S

[Brother Adam]

[/QUOTE]Either you pray with the HELP of the dead[/QUOTE]

Oh, yeah. You tell Elijah and Moses their dead when they appeared with Jesus at the transfiguration. The dead in Christ are alive.

What happens on the astrology channel is conjuring. However, the saints are very well aware of what goes on here. Adequate Bible backround has been provided for us.

"Jesus is the one mediator"

This refers to the Chist's role as the pascal lamb in which he mediates for us a better covenant, one in his blood, allowing us to be members of the family royale (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) as adopted sons of God through baptism. This however does not negate the role of prayer, in which we call on other Christians to pray for us. The communion of the saints is about intercession, as we are all called to intercess for one another, not mediatorship of the covenant, which belongs to Christ alone, and is affirmed by Pope John Paul II.

[the lumberjack]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Apr 10 2004, 09:50 AM'] Oh, yeah. You tell Elijah and Moses their dead when they appeared with Jesus at the transfiguration. The dead in Christ are alive. [/quote]
first of all, there are only 2 people in the Bible who did not physically die.

Elijah and Enoch...which I'm sure you all know.

Second, they are alive, but not in our realm...and not with human bodies...

and just because they are with Christ, does that mean we can ask them for intercession?

show me where Christ said this was ok?

"And whatsoever ye shall ask in MY name"

and here we go again, brother PAUL, writing to the ROMANS about salvation and intercession for us... and I do believe that 24 is a little more about sola fide and obtaining salvation...oh my!

Romans 8:24-28

[quote]24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: [b]but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.[/b]

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.[/quote]

so...we should pray in the name of Christ...and its the HOLY SPIRIT that makes intercession for us....hmmm...

Rom 8:34 Who [is] he that condemneth? [It is] Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

oh my....Christ? interceding for us? whoa...

and yes we should keep one another accountable and pray for one another...James 5:16


[quote]16 Confess your faults one to another, and [b]pray one for another[/b], that ye may be healed. [u]The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.[/u]

17 Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.

18 And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit.

19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;

20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.[/quote]

amen and oh my...again!

but... other than Christ and the HOLY SPIRIT making intercession for us to God, EVERY OTHER MENTION of intercession in the Bible is of a person that is ALIVE on behalf of another LIVE person.

again...brother PAUL breakin it down in ROMANS...oh...I've also gone ahead and included some material on how PAUL was the apostle to the GENTILES...and that makes peter the apostle to the JEWS...hmmm...double OH MY!

oh...and some more on SOLA FIDE!!! mUAHHAHAHAHAHA!

Romans 11:

[quote]2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh [b]intercession to God against Israel saying,[/b]

3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

[b]5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.[/b]

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:

10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

13 [b]For I speak to you Gentiles, [u]inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles[/u][/b], I magnify mine office:[/quote]

I love Paul....oh my.

Edited April 11, 2004 by the lumberjack

[Bruce S]

Lumber:

Your SOURCE of "Authority" is only 1/3 correct. Scripture.

You forgot the other 2 sources, that, in the Catholic realm are equally true.

Tradition

Magisterium

And they can, and do, since they are the 2/3'rds majority here.

Overrule and win.

Your Protestant mind is having trouble comprehending this....grin.

[Laudate_Dominum]

That's misleading Bruce. There are not three sources of Divine Revelation. The relationship between these three things is not as you say. I thought Adeodatus' post in the Q&A the other day was good.

[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=9832"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=9832[/url]