Catholocism Versus The Bible

[cmotherofpirl]

I figured it had to be from Our Sunday Visitor.

[MagiDragon]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Apr 8 2004, 02:43 PM'] I figured it had to be from Our Sunday Visitor. [/quote]
OSV is made about 25 minutes south of my house.

I love my diocese, we've got Notre Dame and OSV.

[Justified Saint]

Lumberjack,

What really kills me is how Protestants suddenly care about context in passages like in James 2 yet they normally try to downplay context since context usually always destroys their prooftexts.

We can discuss the context all you like, but you aren't going to make James' words mean the exact opposite of what they are saying. Sure, you can invent new meanings of faith and have it change all throughout the very passage in James itself, but I am sure the discerning Catholic can catch that kind of eisegesis a mile away.

I can certainly see why Martin Luther wanted ole Jimmy out of the Bible, he sure knows how to get under Protestants' skin.

As far as talking to ourselves - well I think it goes both ways. It seems to me that a lot Catholics are trying to tell you what we believe but you continue to prop up your misrepresentations not wishing to accept what we say. It seems that Bruce is your guide to Catholicism because he was once a Catholic. Now of course there is nothing wrong with that, if that is how you want to learn about Catholicism then that is your choice. But don't claim to [u]always[/u] be open and listening to what Catholics have to say, mostly it goes through one ear and out the other.

[the lumberjack]

you know, the thing is, I am here to try to learn...and I read everything you post and not just read it, but I look into it.

I go to a bunch of catholic sites and look it up and cross check it and junk...and most of what I get are either circles or very vague, stretched out, mostly out of context ties...

circles.

and if catholics didn't have all the documents that you had at your disposal, you wouldn't be able to defend what you believe, I'm not saying this to TRY to be mean, but like I've said before...its a literal OCEAN of legal jargon and paperwork and "developing" and more jargon for one to TRY to learn even the BASICS of the catholic faith. And the magesterium? I doubt that they'd be able to memorize everything, and be able to reproduce it all with the vague accuracy it has now.

where as the protestants would be able to defend what we believe so long as there is two or three strong brothers in the Lord led by the Holy Ghost...with only the Bible.

God bless.

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Apr 9 2004, 05:21 AM']you know, the thing is, I am here to try to learn...and I read everything you post and not just read it, but I look into it.

I go to a bunch of catholic sites and look it up and cross check it and junk...and most of what I get are either circles or very vague, stretched out, mostly out of context ties...

circles.

and if catholics didn't have all the documents that you had at your disposal, you wouldn't be able to defend what you believe, I'm not saying this to TRY to be mean, but like I've said before...its a literal OCEAN of legal jargon and paperwork  and "developing" and more jargon for one to TRY to learn even the BASICS of the catholic faith.  And the magesterium?  I doubt that they'd be able to memorize everything, and be able to reproduce it all with the vague accuracy it has now.

where as the protestants would be able to defend what we believe so long as there is two or three strong brothers in the Lord led by the Holy Ghost...with only the Bible.

God bless.[/quote]
LJ,

You seem to think the Catholic Church is made up of paper? The Catholic Church is strong because of it's authority. The Pope, than the bishops, and then priests.
The only reason why we have so many documents is because of the great split in the Church. Things had to be laid out, rules set. You can't sit there and tell me if I went on a protestant website, two or three people would have different points of views, come on, not everybody knows eveything, we learn from each other. We have those documents so we can go to them and get the facts.

Here I'll type out a little chapter in Scott Hahns Book "Scripture Matters"

The Power to Transform

"Though his actual reading took only five minutes per day, we must confine Saint Josemaria's meditation on Scripture to those few moments. He also prayed the Scriptures in his daily Mass and recitation of the Divine Office. He frequently used biblical commentaries of the Fathers of the Church for spiritual reading. Indeed, he insisted that a Christan's personal meditation on Scripture must feed his mental prayer as well as the spontaneous prayer that fills his entire day. 'For we do need to know it well, to have it in our heart and mind, so that at any time, without any book, we can close our eyes and contemplate [Christ's] life, watching it like a movie. In this way the words and actions of our Lord will come to mind in all different circumstances of our life.'
With the reading of Scripture, then, comes the grace of tranformation, of conversion. Reading the Bible is not a passive act, but an active seeking and finding. 'If we do this without holding back, Christ's words will enter deep into our soul and will really change us. For 'the word of God is living and active, shaper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of the soul and spirit, of joints and marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart' (HEB. 4:12)

When you read Sacred Scripture you have to use the four fold senses together what JPII refers to as the "full sense" of Scripture, engaging both faith and reason in mutual support(cf FR,55)

What is the four fold sense? That is to say, Scripture has a literal sense that signifies a historical reality. That historical reality then discloses three spiritual senses, traditionally identified as the allegorical sense, the tropological (or moral) sense, and the anagogical sense (cf. Catechism, no. 115)"

You cannot read Scripture with one of these senses absent! You have to have ALL four.

"Remeber that prayer should accompany the reading of Sacred Scripture, so that God and man may talk together"; for in the words of Saint Ambrose, "we speak to Him when we pray; we hear him when we read the divine saying"(DV,25)

"Thy kingdom come". "Contrary to Alfred Loisy's retort, Jesus delivered exactly the kingdom He had promised, and He delivered it as the Church. Recall our Lord compared the kindom to a dragnet filled with fish and with trash; recall that He compared it to a field full of both weeds and wheat. He could not have been speaking of the fulfillment of the kingdom at the end time; for then there would be no trash, no weeds, no tears, no mourning, no crying, no pain, nor anything accursed (cf.Rev. 21:4, 22:3). He was speaking about the Church that we know today---the Church that is the kingdom, the kingdom where the King reigns in the Eucharist."

"The Catechism sums it up: 'The Church knows that the Lord comes even now in His Eucharist and that He is there in our midst. However, His presence is veiled" (no.1404)

So the above quote by Scott Hahn with Christ promise of His kindom fulfilled in the Eucharist, that there are weeds with the wheat, fish and trash, tells you that things need to be sorted out. But it's still His Catholic Church and He reigns in His Eucharistic Kingdom. You want to see Heaven on earth, go to Holy Mass.

So to say you are going in circles is a self inflected wound. You take The Catholic Churches documents and compare them to a persons opinion. If you want a true opinion of the Church's document I would suggest looking up the Early Church Fathers or the Saints. Your confusing yourself by asking here then going there for a second opinion (if you will). Scripture does not contradict Tradition.

God Bless
Jason

[yiannii]

[quote name='Anna' date='Apr 6 2004, 09:30 AM'] As he did to his wife?

har har!
Sorry,

Really.

Sorry. Shame on me.

Going to confession right now.

Seriously.

Pax Christi. <>< [/quote]
ROFL :laugh:

cough cough

LOL

[Bruce S]

[quote]When you read Sacred Scripture you have to use the four fold senses together what JPII refers to as the "full sense" of Scripture, engaging both faith and reason in mutual support(cf FR,55)

What is the four fold sense? That is to say, Scripture has a literal sense that signifies a historical reality. That historical reality then discloses three spiritual senses, traditionally identified as the allegorical sense, the tropological (or moral) sense, and the anagogical sense (cf. Catechism, no. 115)"

You cannot read Scripture with one of these senses absent! You have to have ALL four.
[/quote]

Yep, that is how Luther, Calvian, Wycliffe and Huss did it.

Wonder if they knew JP II would someday agree with this way of approaching things?

NOW...

For the $64,000 question. Can one "read scripture" without the OFFICIAL Roman Catholic UNDERSTANDING?

Using that fourfold sense that JP taught, or does one have to come to the EXACT same conclusion that the Magisetrium wants, is a SLIGHLY different understanding even allowed?

IF NOT. Then you are NOT doing a scriputre READING, but rather just being drones and letting others do all the thinking, and understanding for you.

Robots without minds, if you cannot come to other conclusions. And you deny what JP is so obviously asking of you, THINK, use your own brain, pray, and understand...

[Paladin D]

[i][b]Catholicism Versus The Bible[/b][/i]? What an oxymoron.

[the lumberjack]

[quote name='Bruce S' date='Apr 9 2004, 09:52 AM']
Yep, that is how Luther, Calvian, Wycliffe and Huss did it.

Wonder if they knew JP II would someday agree with this way of approaching things?

NOW...

For the $64,000 question. Can one "read scripture" without the OFFICIAL Roman Catholic UNDERSTANDING?

Using that fourfold sense that JP taught, or does one have to come to the EXACT same conclusion that the Magisetrium wants, is a SLIGHLY different understanding even allowed?

IF NOT. Then you are NOT doing a scriputre READING, but rather just being drones and letting others do all the thinking, and understanding for you.

[b]Robots without minds, if you cannot come to other conclusions. And you deny what JP is so obviously asking of you, THINK, use your own brain, pray, and understand...[/b] [/quote]
kinda like stormtrooopers?

OH MY!

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote name='Bruce S' date='Apr 9 2004, 10:52 AM']
Yep, that is how Luther, Calvian, Wycliffe and Huss did it.

Wonder if they knew JP II would someday agree with this way of approaching things?

NOW...

For the $64,000 question. Can one "read scripture" without the OFFICIAL Roman Catholic UNDERSTANDING?

Using that fourfold sense that JP taught, or does one have to come to the EXACT same conclusion that the Magisetrium wants, is a SLIGHLY different understanding even allowed?

IF NOT. Then you are NOT doing a scriputre READING, but rather just being drones and letting others do all the thinking, and understanding for you.

Robots without minds, if you cannot come to other conclusions. And you deny what JP is so obviously asking of you, THINK, use your own brain, pray, and understand...[/quote]
[quote]Using that fourfold sense that JP taught, or does one have to come to the EXACT same conclusion that the Magisetrium wants, is a SLIGHLY different understanding even allowed?[/quote]
NO!!!!!! The One Holy Catholic Church has the Authority to interpret Scripture.


[quote]IF NOT. Then you are NOT doing a scriputre READING, but rather just being drones and letting others do all the thinking, and understanding for you.[/quote]

No we are just being obedient to the Catholic Church period. I don't own myself, I thought you studied Paul didn't he say we were bought at a price, The price of Our Savior's Precious Blood!


[quote]Robots without minds, if you cannot come to other conclusions.[/quote]

I beg to differ, I used my free will and gave it back to God and I say along with Christ, "Not my will, but Your will be done."

God Bless
Jason

Edited April 9, 2004 by Jason

[Bruce S]

[quote]obedient to the Catholic Church period. I don't own myself[/quote]

Man, you make the Protestant reformation come alive again ....

You would be the sort to DEFEND all the abuses of the Catholic Church in those days, and might even be a Tetzle clone right now.

Defending the indefensible...

In case you don't know who I'm referencing, and this is the NICEST reference I can find on our dear friend Tetzle, by FAR!

[quote]It was in this situation that the pope decided he needed to raise funds to build St. Peter's basilica in Rome. The pope had declared an Indulgence for the purpose of raising money to finance this construction. While the indulgences themselves were not, strictly speaking, for sale, the ones receiving such an indulgence were expected to make some sort of "love offering" (to use the modern term). It was in this situation that Tetzle, a Dominican, preached about the indulgence in Germany. Of course, those with little theological training did not discern the subtle difference between paying for the indulgence and making a "love offering."[/quote]

If you LOVE your family, PAY and get you dear dad out of Purgatory. If you really want to know what the real sales pitch was back then, Luther, a defender of his poor, knew that they were giving money for a BUILDING and letting their children starve, of course, that is what they were actually being told to do.

But we can't let real history stand in the way of your zeal Jason.

My country right or wrong, and all that....

Edited April 9, 2004 by Bruce S

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote name='Bruce S' date='Apr 9 2004, 03:28 PM']
Man, you make the Protestant reformation come alive again ....

You would be the sort to DEFEND all the abuses of the Catholic Church in those days, and might even be a Tetzle clone right now.

Defending the indefensible...

In case you don't know who I'm referencing, and this is the NICEST reference I can find on our dear friend Tetzle, by FAR!



If you LOVE your family, PAY and get you dear dad out of Purgatory. If you really want to know what the real sales pitch was back then, Luther, a defender of his poor, knew that they were giving money for a BUILDING and letting their children starve, of course, that is what they were actually being told to do.

But we can't let real history stand in the way of your zeal Jason.

My country right or wrong, and all that....[/quote]
So your saying you have a problem with Holy Souls in Puratory?

You sure do like to question everything don't you. Is that being like a child, I thought children put their trust in their parents?

You can question the Church all you want from 50 different angles, you won't prove us wrong.

Who are you to put yourself on a high seat to judge on paying for Holy Masses for Holy Souls?

You have your facts way off brotha! This is what you love to do :argue: :saber: :director: :knockout: :swords:

You can keep it
God Bless You
Jason

[IcePrincessKRS]

Play nice y'all.

[Bruce S]

[quote]So your saying you have a problem with Holy Souls in Puratory?

You sure do like to question everything don't you. Is that being like a child, I thought children put their trust in their parents?[/quote]

I'm a fully grown, adult, not a child, and as such, am expected, not TOLD to think and question everything. The concept of not thinking, is what the Jews were told to be like, just listen to the Rabbi's, they had it right, right?

Including the "Development of Doctrine" that ultimately created the concept of purgatory.

NO.

On second thought, there is a purgatory, it is here, I'm in purgatory now, I hope putting up with Jason counts, it should, or I could just wear a brown scapula, and not worry about him any longer....grin.

[mulls]

haha, and just to think, bruce is tame on phatmass, i know from experience.