Catholocism Versus The Bible

[MagiDragon]

God is always willing to forgive us, but if we reject His forgiveness he won't force it on us. It's a part of the whole free will thing. God never does anything that is against our will, it just happens that actions speak louder than words (or thoughts).

If I say that I love God, but don't respect the Eucharist, I don't respect God.

If you think of 'justifying' your words, that's what the Church considers justification. We must say the right things, but then when push comes to shove, we must *do* the right things as well.

Peace,
Magidragon

[flip]

hi

Edited April 7, 2004 by flip

[dUSt]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Apr 6 2004, 10:57 AM'] I BELIEVE you mean "it's its"

---Strong Bad's Guide to Grammar

as far as the bible...I'm glad I have mine...and if you WERE to get rid of every other type of bible, you'd have to get rid of the commentary about it, and the commentator there of.

would that be protecting the truth? erradicating the "heretics"?

hardly.

A true Christian, were the Bible to be outlawed and "destroyed", would still be able to carry God's word.

is it the same for all the vatican documents? could you memorize and preach from them as easily as a protestant were THEY to be outlawed and deleted?

I'm wondering. [/quote]
You miss the point.

I'm in favor of eradicating all distorted versions of the Bible. If devil worshipers took the bible, edited it, published it as "The Bible: Devil Version", and used it to promote Satanism, would you be in favor of getting rid of those versions?

[amarkich]

I apologize that I do not have time to reply, but I will make one comment for now. Bruce, you claimed that Our Lady could not cast the protestants into Hell (which I am sure she does quite often, as depicted in the statue). Have you ever read the Bible? Who cast the bad Angels into Hell? Did God do that or did Saint Michael the Archangel and the other Angels? You remind me of the protestants who say "No one can perform miracles but God!" when throughout the New Testament there are instances of the Apostles healing people by miracles (even just the shadow of the Apostles!). Your statements further illustrate the complete disorder of the protestant heresies because there is no legitimate theological defense (because there is no one who derives authority from God). It truly amazes me that anyone could really believe the crazy teachings of protestants (i.e., that the protestant revolutionaries were finally practicing the true Christianity, ending the oppression of the Church--the same Church that gave us the Bible and Western Civilization as we know it). It is even more laughable because there is certainly no historical defense whatsoever for protestantism. Any sincere history student is surely either a Catholic or an atheist. The protestants twist the Scriptures and have yet to form any kind of doctrine except Sola Fide (which has been disproved many times) and Sola Scriptura (which is not even found in the Bible--what a joke). It is clear that the protestants have twisted the Scriptures "to their own destruction". Sorry if there are grammatical errors; I am in a hurry. God bless.

[dUSt]

[quote]The Catholic Church teaches that you must have works if you have faith as if they were one and the same. They say that if you don't have sanctification, you don't have justification. Your sancification sustains and increases your justification. [/quote]
How can we have justification without sanctification? I see a problem with thinking that justification is just a one-time declaration by God, because how can we be justified (ready for heaven) when our souls are still dirty, filthy, and full of sin? We [b]need[/b] sanctification to be justified. God's sanctifying grace actually transforms our souls--it cleanses us. Your definition of justification doesn't work for me because it implies that God is just saying we are justified--yet, are souls are still just as dirty as they were before we "accepted Christ".

[i]"But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God" (1 Cor. 6:11)[/i]

According to you, what changes in us after we "Accept Christ"? Does anything actually happen or does God just make some type of declaration that we are now automatically going to heaven?

[quote]I believe justification occured at the cross. Justification has already occured, and sanctification is a life long process. Two forms of salvation if you will: justification from the punishment of sin which Jesus did, and sanctification from the life of sin which I do.[/quote]
What is the point then of sanctification? Why does it exist if we are already justified? The difference here is that you believe justification to be a one-time thing, and sanctification to be ongoing. Catholics believe that they are both ongoing. Compare Romans 4:3; Genesis 15:6 with both Hebrews 11:8; Genesis 12:1-4 and James 2:21-23; Genesis 22:1-18. In these passages, Abraham is justified on three separate occasions.

God bless.

[the lumberjack]

sanctification and justification are both achieved when you get saved.

INITIAL salvation is obtained by faith in Christ, repentence of sins, and handing your everything over to Him.

works are a product and show of that faith, but never required for justification or sanctification...again, look at how sanctification and justification are acheived.

---

amarkich,

just as it is laughable to a catholic to hear some of the beliefs of protestants, it is equally laughable to us to hear some of yours. "the immaculate conception of mary?" i mean, EVERYONE here is quick to pin original sin on everyone ever MADE...and if you say that mary was born without sin, you make Christ useless, because then Mary would have lived the perfect life before God. this is one of long list that we view as skewed. God entrusted revelation to Roman Catholic bishops? in the Bible it says God entrusted revelation to the saints...Jude 3...and so on and so on and so on and on and on and on and on...

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Apr 7 2004, 11:51 AM'] sanctification and justification are both achieved when you get saved.

INITIAL salvation is obtained by faith in Christ, repentence of sins, and handing your everything over to Him.

works are a product and show of that faith, but never required for justification or sanctification...again, look at how sanctification and justification are acheived.

---

amarkich,

just as it is laughable to a catholic to hear some of the beliefs of protestants, it is equally laughable to us to hear some of yours. "the immaculate conception of mary?" i mean, EVERYONE here is quick to pin original sin on everyone ever MADE...and if you say that mary was born without sin, you make Christ useless, because then Mary would have lived the perfect life before God. this is one of long list that we view as skewed. God entrusted revelation to Roman Catholic bishops? in the Bible it says God entrusted revelation to the saints...Jude 3...and so on and so on and so on and on and on and on and on... [/quote]
[u]Justification[/u] is by Baptism and is entrance into the Kingdom.
[u]Sanctification[/u] is the lifelong process of living in the Kingdom and perserving until the end.
The faith you recieved without works is dead.

Lumber to talk to Catholics you must understand the definitions of the words first.

[dUSt]

[quote]sanctification and justification are both achieved when you get saved.[/quote]
Can you explain this to me?

What do you actually believe happens? Catholics believe that sanctification actually changes the soul. God's sanctifying grace cleanses us.

This doesn't seem possible with what you believe, as we are still sinful even after we accept Christ--therefore, it almost seems as your definition of sanctification is a falsehood. We are sanctified, yet, our souls are still dirty. Maybe you can expand on this?

[quote]INITIAL salvation is obtained by faith in Christ, repentence of sins, and handing your everything over to Him.[/quote]
What other types of salvation are there? Initial salvation and...

[quote]works are a product and show of that faith, but never required for justification or sanctification...again, look at how sanctification and justification are acheived.[/quote]
Again I make it a point to explain that the act of "accepting Christ as your savior" is a work in itself. So, according to your beliefs in how we are saved, works are in fact required. Is this not corrrect?

God bless.

[the lumberjack]

[quote]Can you explain this to me?

What do you actually believe happens? Catholics believe that sanctification actually changes the soul. God's sanctifying grace cleanses us.[/quote]

sure.

heres sanctification:

[quote][b][u]sanctification[/u][/b], is used of (a) separation to God, 1 Cor, 1Cr 1:30; 2Th 2:13; 1Pe 1:2

(b) the course of life befitting those so separated, 1Th 4:3,4,7; Rom 6:19,22; 1Ti 2:15; Hbr 12:14. [color=blue][b]"Sanctification is that relationship with God into which men ENTER BY FAITH IN CHRIST, Act 26:18[/b][/color] 1Cr 6:11, and to which their sole title is the death of Christ, Eph 5:25,26: Col 1:22; Hbr 10:10,29; 13:12. "Sanctification is also used in NT of the separation of the believer from evil things and ways. This sanctification is God's will for the believer, 1Th 4:3, and His purpose in calling him by the gospel, 1Th 4:7; it must be learned from God, 1Th 4:4, as He teaches it by His Word, Jhn 17:17,19; cp. Psa 17:4; 119:9, and it must be pursued by the believer, earnestly and undeviatingly, 1Ti 2:15; Hbr 12:14. For the holy character, hagiosune, 1Th 3:13, is not vicarious, i.e., it cannot be transferred or imputed, it is an individual possession, built up, little by little, as the result of obedience to the Word of God, and of following the example of Christ, Mat 11:29; Jhn 13:15; Eph 4:20; Phl 2:5, in the power of the Holy Spirit, Rom 8:13; Eph 3:16. "The Holy Spirit is the Agent in sanctification, Rom 15:16; 2Th 2:13; 1Pe 1:2; cp. 1Cr 6:11. ...[/quote]

notice how it says faith...not works or baptism.

and here's justification:

[quote]denotes "the act of pronouncing righteous, justification, acquittal;" its precise meaning is determined by that of the verb dikaioo, "to justify" (see B); it is used twice in the Epistle to the Romans, and there alone in the NT, signifying the establisment of a person as just by acquittal from guilt. In Rom 4:25 the phrase "for our justification," is, lit., "because of our justification" (parallel to the preceding clause "for our trespasses," i.e., because of trespasses committed), and means, not with a view to our "justification," but because all that was necessary on God's part for our "justification" had been effected in the death of Christ. On this account He was raised from the dead. The propitiation being perfect and complete, His resurrection was the confirmatory counterpart. In Rom 5:18, "justification of life" means "justification which results in life" (cp. ver. 21). That God "justifies" the believing sinner on the ground of Christ's death, involves His free gift of life. On the distinction between dikaiosis and dikaioma, see below. In the Sept., Lev 24:22.[/quote]

as you see, one is a separation unto God, and the other is an acquttal of guilt...both of which occur when you are saved. there is no possible way we could achieve either without Christ. no works however good or meant towards God, can justify or sanctify us...Christ and the Holy Ghost do both

[quote]This doesn't seem possible with what you believe, as we are still sinful even after we accept Christ--therefore, it almost seems as your definition of sanctification is a falsehood. We are sanctified, yet, our souls are still dirty. Maybe you can expand on this?[/quote]

as far as what you believe its quite impossible as well. according to you, we have to walk this ultrafine line, performing all the rituals, saying the right words, doing all the right works...while still in danger of losing it all at the drop of a hat.

yes, we are still sinful, but we are no longer slaves to sin. we are humans, not machines. we are no longer bound by it or the law or any other tactic of the world to ensnare us. we may fall from time to time...but God loves and forgives.


[quote]What other types of salvation are there? Initial salvation and...[/quote]

initial salvation as in "when you INITIALly get SAVEd" ...NOT as in a whole other process.


[quote]Again I make it a point to explain that the act of "accepting Christ as your savior" is a work in itself. So, according to your beliefs in how we are saved, works are in fact required. Is this not corrrect?[/quote]

faith in Christ, repentence of sins, and handing over all you are to God is what is required. if you insist on calling those works...sure. but those are the only "works" necessary for salvation...."initial salvation", that is.

God bless.

[Justified Saint]

The Catholic is still convinced by the simple words of scripture.

[quote]See how a person is [b]justified by works [/b]and [u][b]not by faith alone[/b][/u]. [/quote]

No need to try to make this verse mean the exact opposite of what it is saying.

[quote][u]who will repay everyone according to his works[/u]:  [b][u]eternal life [/u]to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality [u]through perseverance in good works[/u][/b][/quote]

Well, it doesn't get much simpler than that. We shouldn't fear loving and working in the name of the Lord for He will always provide for his children.

Edited April 8, 2004 by Justified Saint

[the lumberjack]

you guys kill me, you really do.

SOMETIMES you'll take stuff just as it is out of the Bible, yet so out of context...like the passage from James.

SOMETIMES you'll take something from the Bible, yet stack your documents on top of it...TRYING to make it to say something totally different.

yet when I or...lets say Bruce present something totally undeniably true, you say something totally unrelated like, "the gates of Hell won't prevail" or "2000 YEARS!" or something the like.

I really wish I could get SOME kind of grip as to what you guys really believe, to learn something. but yet, when I post something as simple as a definition, you TRY to switch it on me and go SEMI sola scriptura....like above.

and yet... like Bruce said, If you didn't have a heretic here, you'd only be talking to yourselves.

hahahahaha.....30% catholic. that would make me about 12%...but the market ain't lookin too good today.

I gotta get to work...I'm sure I'll be back later.

[Bruce S]

[quote]I really wish I could get SOME kind of grip as to what you guys really believe, to learn something. but yet, when I post something as simple as a definition, you TRY to switch it on me and go SEMI sola scriptura....like above.[/quote]

What they DO absolutely believe, is the Roman Catholic church is right, and when doctrine needs defined, it IS defined, and ONCE defined, it is required to believe.

The REAL foundation for the Catholic Church is the CURRENT understanding of anything, of course, historically, THIS understanding, MAY BE radically different from THAT OLD understand historically.

But that never is allowed to compute, Cardinal Newman explains it all for you clearly, wade through his teaching, he really was genius, I'm granting him that one. Anyone that can make THIS TRUTH, *always* the right truth, when that truth was thought to mean THAT, and now means THIS, should most definately, today, be elevated to Sainthood.

Lumber, that is what frustrates YOU, YOU have a different starting and ending point, yours centers on the Bible, theirs is INFLUENCED BY, but not RESTRICTED BY the scriptures, to the Catholic Church mind, there are THREE equal foundations, Scpriture, Tradition, AND the current agreed upon truth, embodied in the "Magisterium" So, it is rather like trying to debate Mormon's, the theology is NOT the same, I'm not saying that, but Mormons have a doctrine too of continually evolving doctrine, and they trust AUTHORITY to interpret scripture first, and add to that with as needs and the leadership "evolves" over the intervenening time, and they have the same ability to reject past teachings, and they want us to ignore that change, it doesn't matter, so forgettabout it.

Don't feel bad for them, it must really be hard to be so deferential to authority, as dUSt said, "Being a Catholic isn't easy"

Amen. And God bless, we just come from radically different worldviews, thiers centers on 'what the church teaches' FIRST, ours centers on 'what the scripture actually says' and that can't be resolved, nor will it.

[CatholicAndFanatical]

[quote]
OK.

Here goes. One confesses his sin [either Catholic Church style, or Protestant style] accepts Jesus as his savior...

Does not have time to be baptised, or do ANY good works, and DIES.

Is he saved?
[/quote]

I would say no he's not saved. According to Scriptures nothing unclean will ever enter Heaven. And without Baptism, you would have original sin on your soul. Maybe purgatory, dont think you'd go to Hell..but who knows..only God.

I agree with what Dave said though, if you confessed Catholic Style then you would have to be baptised and chances are you've already recieved the Body of Christ at one point, so yea im sure youd be saved.


LumberJack:

I dont see us taking things out of context at all. We simply show whats in Scriptures on a certain subject. Not everything is in the Bible, just because something isnt written in it doesnt make it false. The Church is a living, growing object and since the Scriptures were finished around 70AD or so, could be later, and was compiled and approved almost 300 years later, you cant possibly think that just because its not in Scriptures then it must not be so. Even the last sentence of John's gospel says this..but of course I COULD be taken that one sentence out of context huh.
This is where we must use Early Church Fathers. Someone like you or Bruce would say "The Catholic Church wasnt even around until 325AD" - then we would go back and see how far we could trace ourselves..and lo and behold we see ECF's as early as 80AD..so therefore that would prove that comment wrong.. See, we dont use documents to make scriptures say something its not, we use documents to show that our Church has always taught this. It is you prots that bring new things into this.

[CatholicAndFanatical]

[quote]
Amen. And God bless, we just come from radically different worldviews, thiers centers on 'what the church teaches' FIRST, ours centers on 'what the scripture actually says' and that can't be resolved, nor will it.

[/quote]

Bruce, to center on 'what the scriptures actually say' would be to follow the Church, since the Bible doesnt say anything about following what it says, but rather tells us to follow the Church, which is the pillar of truth. What Church does it say to follow Bruce? Not one that wasnt around until 1500ad or later, but the one Christ founded upon Peter.

We believe what the Church says because it was given Authority by God Himself. That alone makes it worthy of belief.

Where does your church get its authority at Bruce? Not from God, He only gave ONE Church that authority. What date did your church start bruce? Only a few hundred years ago if that I garuntee it. Doesnt sound like something that God built.

You can put down the magisterium till your blue in the face. The fact of the matter is, the Catholic Church has always been here, since Christ's ascention into Heaven, He gave the Church the Authority to govern it, however they see fit. I can understand how you want to take a stand against this, like Dust said, its not easy to be Catholic, its super easy to be a prot, do what you want your forgiven already..such garbage. Its a mockery of what God wanted.

You dont have to pity us, but I do pity you. You are missing the awesomeness of God. Sure you may get all tingly when you go to your 'service' on sundays and worship God. But you can never have a personal, intimate relationship with Christ until you can see Him face to face and recieve His true Body and Blood and have Him present before you.

[Bruce S]

[quote]You dont have to pity us,[b] but I do pity you. You are missing the awesomeness of God.[/b] Sure you may get all tingly when you go to your 'service' on sundays and worship God. But you can never have a personal, intimate relationship with Christ until you can see Him face to face and recieve His true Body and Blood and have Him present before you.[/quote]

Now if I had said the same thing... I would be castigated.

I love you, and suggest you get out a little more, we don't bite.

And your understanding of Pentecostals is not much deeper than Jack Chick's understanding of Catholics, sad.

[quote]Catholic leaders often "blame" Protestants for proselytizing Catholics and commend us for the "richness" of our faith. However, we need to face the embarrassing question of why so many millions of Catholics around the world are finding a reality of Christian life in Evangelical and Pentecostal churches that they did not find in their local Catholic church.

[b]The wrong kind of Catholic pride twists confidence in the truth and the treasures of Catholicism into complacency. It blinds us to the impoverished state of many Catholic institutions and many Catholics' lives. [/b]

I know of many Catholics who have fallen away from their faith-or who were living in parishes where the gospel was not being preached and morality was not being taught and no support was being given for family life-and who found a living, personal relationship with Jesus Christ in a Baptist or Assembly of God congregation.

[b]Rather than condemning the Protestants for proselytism, we Catholics should consider the possibility that people might find more practical help in the Protestant churches for avoiding hell and attaining heaven than they were getting in their Catholic parishes. [/b]

Personally, I am fully convinced of the truth of Catholicism. I would never counsel anyone to leave the Catholic Church. [b]But don't we have enough fear of God to tremble at the sight of [u][color=blue]people leaving the Catholic Church in order to find teaching from the Bible and support for raising their children for Christ?[/color][/u] [/b]

The wrong kind of pride in Catholicism can put us in a condition similar to that addressed by the prophet Jeremiah: "Thus says the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel: reform your ways and your deeds, so that I may remain with you in this place. Put not your trust in the deceitful words, 'This is the temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord. (Jer. 7:1-7).

Is the Catholic Church "the one true church?" I believe it is. [b]But many people in it are perishing. They do not know the Lord Jesus Christ. They are not being taught and fed. They are not being pastored. Their character is not being formed according to Christ. [/b]In some cases they are receiving false teaching right in Catholic institutions. Looking at this, we need to come before God in repentance, asking him for mercy, [b]asking him to come and visit us and renew us. [/b]
Copyright 1991, [b]Our Sunday Visitor.[/b]

[/quote]

I would note the source, it is YOUR weekly Catholic newspaper. They said it all...

My Pentecostal church of a thousand families is 60% ex-Catholic, they left for the reasons that this article alludes to.

Spend some time thinking about WHY that might be so, the folks who left are VERY serious about God, much more so than the cradle Pentecostals, they all made informed, deliberate, hard to make decisions before leaving the Catholic Church. It isn't easy, you feel intially like a traitor, but you have to do what the Holy Spirit leads you to do, and for MANY, it is to leave to actually FIND a real, live, vibrant, relationship version of God.

Now many Catholics, no most, are born into the denomination, for other denominations like Pentecostals, just about everyone, leaves somewhere else to come in, so, it is a thinking decision, not a "I was born one, my parents were, and their parents too" ..type of thing.

Edited April 8, 2004 by Bruce S