Catholocism Versus The Bible

[Dave]

[quote name='Bruce S' date='Apr 6 2004, 09:56 AM']
I guess Mel, and all the JESUIT theologians who consulted with him on the PASSION movie were just ignorant then, right? [/quote]
Bruce, no more of this condescending attitude! Change it!

[Justified Saint]

Clement then goes on to say in the following chapter:

[quote]The [u]good servant receives the bread of his labour with confidence[/u]; the lazy and slothful cannot look his employer in the face. It is [b]requisite[/b], therefore, that [u]we be prompt in the practice of well-doing[/u]; for of Him are all things. And thus He forewarns us: "Behold, the Lord [cometh], and His reward is before His face, to render to every man according to his work."[/quote]

[dairygirl4u2c]

That doesn't contradict my stance. Works follow from the justified as Augustine said. I believe we ALL recieve according to our works.

[Justified Saint]

Clement is not just saying that works will follow a saving faith. He is stating quite clearly that works themselves are required because doing good in the name of the faith and God is what counts.

[dUSt]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' date='Apr 6 2004, 09:24 AM'] That doesn't contradict my stance. Works follow from the justified as Augustine said. I believe we ALL recieve according to our works. [/quote]
What IS your stance?

We are saved by faith alone. Correct?

The Catholic position is that we are saved by faith + works. Why? Because faith cannot be separated from works. The Church recognizes this, so states the obvious. In fact, the simple act of saying "I have faith in you Lord" is a work in itself.

Now you seem to be saying that you believe the same thing as the Church. Is this so?

To ask it simply: [b]How does what you believe differ from what the Church teaches?[/b]

[Bruce S]

OK.

Here goes. One confesses his sin [either Catholic Church style, or Protestant style] accepts Jesus as his savior...

Does not have time to be baptised, or do ANY good works, and DIES.

Is he saved?

[dUSt]

[quote name='Bruce S' date='Apr 6 2004, 09:41 AM'] OK.

Here goes. One confesses his sin [either Catholic Church style, or Protestant style] accepts Jesus as his savior...

Does not have time to be baptised, or do ANY good works, and DIES.

Is he saved? [/quote]
It's impossible to answer this question because it doesn't make sense. You say he confesses his sins, therefore he does a good work (confessing his sins). Then you say that he doesn't do any good works. Which is it?

[Dave]

[quote name='Bruce S' date='Apr 6 2004, 10:41 AM'] OK.

Here goes. One confesses his sin [either Catholic Church style, or Protestant style] accepts Jesus as his savior...

Does not have time to be baptised, or do ANY good works, and DIES.

Is he saved? [/quote]
If he confessed his sins Catholic Church style, as you call it, then he'd have to have been baptized previously. Anyway, if he was truly repentant, he'd be saved.

If he confessed his sins Protestant style and didn't have time for baptism or good works, maybe he'd be saved. It would depend on how sorry he was for his sins -- was his contrition perfect (arising out of love for God and sorrow for displeasing Him) or imperfect (arising out of fear of hell or some lesser motive)?

[Bruce S]

[quote]was his contrition perfect (arising out of love for God and sorrow for displeasing Him) or imperfect (arising out of fear of hell or some lesser motive)?
[/quote]

Fear of eternal damnation is not a bad motive... in fact, it might be the best motive there is....

[Aloysius]

Bruce, do you make it a habit to take things out of context? did you even read my post? i didn't even reference Genesis, i referenced REVELATION, THE WOMAN IN REVELATION... wow, either you completely misunderstood by mistake or u just didn't want to understand.

Martin Luther added things to the Bible to change it's meaning. but the Church has the authority, the tradition, and the wisdom and guidance of the Holy Spirit to help her understand what it means. Apparitions have nothing to do with it, and you know it. it's about changing the Biblical text, and THE CATHOLIC CHURCH [b]NEVER[/b] did that, Martin Luther did. The Church was trying to protect it's members from a Bible that had been currupted with heresy, [b][color=blue]the same way a good mother would keep her child from a glass of water with a drop of arsenic[/color][/b]

i applaud the Church's action in restricting the Bible during that time, for in doing so She was protecting the TRUE Bible from the ERRONEOUS MISTRANSLATION of the Bible.

if someone translated the Bible to make it say something contradicting Church teaching and the context of the fullness of scripture, it would be an erroneous translation that all Christians would fight against, and i should hope you would fight against such a currupted Bible as well. yet you condemn the Church for doing just that. can u not understand how she was protecting the true writings of the Scriptures from Martin Luther's imposed words and his taking out of 7 books? the Catholic Church's teaching is not an addition to the scriptures, it is a further extension and application of them, keeping Catholics in one flock as was prophesied the new kingdom would be. We apply the scriptures with the fullness of what they prophesy about us.

will you apologize for Martin Luther and the Reformer's crimes of burning people at the stake when they didn't renounce the Church the same way you demand us to repent for the sins of Catholics during that time period? Or will you admit that the sins of a few do not reflect a religion, that the Church never claimed to have perfect members only that Christ keeps her teaching free from the stain of error and hell?

[Dave]

[quote name='Bruce S' date='Apr 6 2004, 10:53 AM']
Fear of eternal damnation is not a bad motive... in fact, it might be the best motive there is.... [/quote]
I never said it's a bad motive. But it's not a good enough motive to get us saved if we're unable to go to confession.

You can have perfect contrition and still be afraid of hell, though. However, sorrow for your sins shouldn't spring from the fear of hell; it should spring from your love for God. If you hurt a friend and were sorry, wouldn't you be sorry because you loved them? If you were sorry only because the end of your friendship would mean that y'all wouldn't be going to the movies every Saturday night, then that wouldn't make you a true friend, now would it?

[dUSt]

If it was possible, I'd love it if the Church could eliminate all non-Catholic versions of the Bible. After all, it's it's duty to protect God's Word from error.

[the lumberjack]

I BELIEVE you mean "it's its"

---Strong Bad's Guide to Grammar

as far as the bible...I'm glad I have mine...and if you WERE to get rid of every other type of bible, you'd have to get rid of the commentary about it, and the commentator there of.

would that be protecting the truth? erradicating the "heretics"?

hardly.

A true Christian, were the Bible to be outlawed and "destroyed", would still be able to carry God's word.

is it the same for all the vatican documents? could you memorize and preach from them as easily as a protestant were THEY to be outlawed and deleted?

I'm wondering.

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote]To ask it simply: How does what you believe differ from what the Church teaches?[/quote]

The Catholic Church teaches that you must have works if you have faith as if they were one and the same. They say that if you don't have sanctification, you don't have justification. Your sancification sustains and increases your justification.

I believe justification occured at the cross. Justification has already occured, and sanctification is a life long process. Two forms of salvation if you will: justification from the punishment of sin which Jesus did, and sanctification from the life of sin which I do.

You can have faith without works, but must occasionally have works as a product of this achieved justification or else you are a liar. I speak in human terms as Paul had to do so I can't convey this true grace of God, but He knows your heart. [i]Yes, works are necessary. But even the grace-filled works themselves do not justify us as taught by the Catholic Church.[/i] They are only bi-products. In a way it is a technicality, but it is the whole crux of the gosple.

We all will be judged by our works, but those with faith know that they aren't in a hell where they can't chose God. Unlike the Catholic Church, I believe that by true faith alone is how we are saved from a judgement from God and we have the ability to *always* chose God and nothing I can do can change this because no matter what I do, Jesus died for me. When I sin, I know that it is not my faith or my works that save me, it is Jesus. (which is really superego faith)

[quote]"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." (Romans 4:5).[/quote]

Edited April 6, 2004 by dairygirl4u2c

[dairygirl4u2c]

It is also interesting to note that the Catholic Church teaches that all mankind is redeemed. I don't necessarily disagree with this. But somehow in the Catholic Church you can be universally redemed, but not be forgiven!

But that's just a side note. We should focus on my last post.