Catholocism Versus The Bible

[dairygirl4u2c]

The difference between Catholic and Protestant salvation:

When a protestant sins, she knows that even if she sins, her faith has saved her. The Protestant will repent out of gratitude, wheras Catholics will repent out of necessity.



Trent Canon 24
[quote]If anyone says that the justice (righteousness) received is not preserved and also not increased before God through good works but that those works are merely the fruits and signs of justification obtained, but not the cause of the increase, let him be anathema.[/quote]

Romans 4
[quote]For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath [whereof] to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. [b]But to him that worketh not[/b], but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, [Saying], Blessed [are] they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. [/quote]


Protestants can even know that they are saved:
1 John 5
[quote]For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.  For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, [even] our faith. [b]Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? [/b]

He that hath the Son hath life; [and] he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.  These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; [b[that ye may know that ye have eternal life[/b], and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.  [/quote]

Edited April 5, 2004 by dairygirl4u2c

[cmotherofpirl]

Catholics repent out of sorrow for their sins, I assume protestants do the same.

[dairygirl4u2c]

As Martin Luther once said, "by faith alone, but faith is never alone". Before anyone cites James.

Letter of James
[quote]Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, ‘Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.’ And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.[/quote]


In Romans and Galatians, Paul has this question in mind: How can a guilty sinner be justified by God? Paul answers that a sinner is justified by faith in Christ, and not by the merit of his works. That is what is meant by faith alone.

James deals with a different question altogether. There is a man who claims to have faith and who assents to the cardinal doctrines of the Gospel. Yet this person is devoid of good works. So James asks if this sort of faith save him? "What does it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have no works? Can faith save him?"

James is not asking whether a person is saved by faith plus the merit of his good works. He is asking about the kind of faith that saves. He mentions two types, the real and the counterfeit. Works can distinguish the two from each other: "Show me your faith without your works; and I will show you my faith by my works." Real faith is living, manifesting itself in good works. Counterfeit faith is dead, mere assent to doctrine, devoid of works.

James asks, "Can faith save him?" The answer is simply this, "If it is real faith, manifest in good works, yes. But if it is a counterfeit 'faith', no, it cannot save him."

No contradiction exists between Paul and James. The apostle Paul insists that it is the man "that worketh not, but believeth" that is justified by God. But that is not all. Paul also describes the character of true faith - "faith which worketh by love."

Edited April 5, 2004 by dairygirl4u2c

[Justified Saint]

Luke 13:3

"By no means! But I tell you, if you do not repent, you will all perish as they did!"

The Bible does stipulate repetance but Catholics will still be faulted for following the Bible.

Catholics don't believe that works of the law justify. A conflict has been created where there is none.

[Theoketos]

Context Context Context

[Justified Saint]

And James says "You see that faith was active along with his works, and [b]faith was completed by the works[/b]"

Much work has been done on the Protestant side to make up a different kind of faith for James 2, one that still upholds their faith alone doctrine despite the clear words of James denying faith alone but such an attempt is fuitle. That just leads to switching the meaning of faith several times throughout the passage itself and ignoring context.

[Brother Adam]

You’re mixing several concepts up.

An assurance of salvation, which Catholics have, is different than a guarantee of Once Saved Always Saved. Knowing you are within the grace of God and believing that your head knowledge gives you everlasting life despite works are two separate things.

Through Christ, we enter into a covenant, not a contract. Throughout the New Testament believers are warned against falling away and cutting themselves off from the New Covenant.

There is such a thing and a difference between a "dead faith" and a "living faith". The difference is not a heart-felt prayer. While Christ's encourages prayer, never once is it through prayer that one enters into the New Covenant in the New Testament.

Catholic Soteriology, and Lutheran Soteriology, and Anglican Soteriology, and Methodist Soteriology, and several other reformed groups all recognize our relationship to God not as a corporate or business relationship but a familial relationship.

Catholics do not "earn their salvation through works" Their salvation is bought through the blood of Christ, they participate in the work of God through both faith and works, as the Bible says, redemption is through faith working in love.

Lest us not forget that salvation is not defined as prayer, but as total liberation from evil. Through our Savior Jesus Christ, we enter into the family of God as adopted sons of God. Catholics do not attempt to replace their own works as a substitute for the work of God on the cross. Instead they put their faith in that work as Christ is our mediator between God and man.

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote]"By no means! But I tell you, if you do not repent, you will all perish as they did!"
[/quote]
I meant repentence in that Catholics have to repent from their evil ways as Trent has shown.

In order to have this this kind of faith:
[quote]But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. [/quote]
You do have to repent as your verse indicates. But these are different types of repentences. This is repentence to faith in Jesus.

Again I say, when a protestant sins, she knows that even if she sins, her faith has saved her. The Protestant will repent out of gratitude, wheras Catholics will repent out of necessity.

[cmotherofpirl]

So if I repent out of gratitude I'm no longer Catholic?

[Brother Adam]

[quote]James is not asking whether a person is saved by faith plus the merit of his good works[/quote]

This whole post is a classic example of poorly dividing the Word of Truth and a lousy example trying to say Catholics believe in a false salvation. No one claims that any meritorious can replace the the atonement of Christ on the cross. What is claimed is that works with faith completes our own salvation. Did you catch that word? "Completes". Does not begin, but completes it. St. Paul went so far to claim that our deeds, done solely through the grace of God are united up with the sacrifice of Christ to "make up for what is lacking".

[Brother Adam]

[quote]Again I say, when a protestant sins, she knows that even if she sins, her faith has saved her. The Protestant will repent out of gratitude, wheras Catholics will repent out of necessity. [/quote]

Addressing the concept of OSAS:

What does the life of a Christian entail? Naturally it depends on who you talk to. Once a person has made a commitment to Christ, there are certain responsibilities that come with that commitment. The New Covenant is not a "sign on the dotted line" contract. It does not mean that once you are a Christian you are free to live your life however you want with no fear at all of God's wrath or even of hell. The New Covenant, while unconditional and binding for all time, does not mean that a Christian, once a member cannot choose to willfully leave the covenant. The covenant is still unconditional, but the member can chose to withdraw himself from the family. Christ will never lose anyone whom the Father has given Him, but each of us can choose to say "No, I don't wish to be part of this covenant any longer." Christ did not "lose us", we choose to leave. It does not mean that we are no longer "adopted sons of God" for that seal is forever, it means that we chosen to be outside of God's grace.

In order for one to commit a mortal sin- that which kills the soul the sin must be grace in nature, the person must be aware that the sin is grave in nature, and the person must intend to commit the sin. To be reconciled God after a mortal sin, Catholics should repent and seek forgiveness with another brother in Christ in confession, however anyone who goes through the act of perfect contrition is forgiven (that is, is heartily sorry for their sin, not out of fear of hell, but out of sorrow for offending God).

Therefore as Christians we must always strive to make it our mission to go into the world and do good deeds. Not to appease God's anger or wrath, not to try to "save ourselves", but out of a love for our Savior and to build our own treasure up in heaven. Remember that the last will be first and the first will be last (notice what Christ was doing while teaching this). There is no number of good deeds that we can do that will get us one iota closer to heaven, yet our deeds, done through the grace of God and the power and strength he gives us, are united up with the works of all the Saints in heaven and in turn united up with the work of the cross. The cross finalized the atoning sacrifice made for our salvation, but our works, done in obedient faith, are united together with that faith, which does save us.

Works and Belief cannot be separated. Together they are faith. The Catholic does not earn their salvation, but must participate in it.
Col. 1:24 (ESV)
Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church

John 15:1-17
I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. [2] Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. [3] Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. [4] Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. [5] I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. [6] If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. [7] If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. [8] Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. [9] As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. [10] If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. [11] These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full. [12] This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. [13] Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. [14] Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. [15] Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you. [16] Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. [17] These things I command you, that ye love one another.

Matthew 10:38 (ESV)
And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.

Matthew 16:24 (ESV)
Then Jesus told his disciples, "If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.

Mark 8:34 (ESV)
And he called to him the crowd with his disciples and said to them, "If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.

Luke 9:23 (ESV)
And he said to all, "If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.

Romans 1:5
By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

Matthew 7:15-23
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. [16] Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? [17] Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. [18] A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. [19] Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. [20] Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
[21] Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. [22] Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? [23] And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Matthew 7:24-27
Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: [25] And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. [26] And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: [27] And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

Matthew 18:1-9
At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven? [2] And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, [3] And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. [4] Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven. [5] And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me. [6] But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
[7] Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh! [8] Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire. [9] And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

Matthew 25:31-46
When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: [32] And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: [33] And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. [34] Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: [35] For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: [36] Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. [37] Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? [38] When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? [39] Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? [40] And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. [41] Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: [42] For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: [43] I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. [44] Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? [45] Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. [46] And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

1 John 3:21-24
Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God. [22] And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. [23] And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. [24] And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

Luke 8:10-17
And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand. [11] Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. [12] Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. [13] They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. [14] And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection. [15] But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.
[16] No man, when he hath lighted a candle, covereth it with a vessel, or putteth it under a bed; but setteth it on a candlestick, that they which enter in may see the light. [17] For nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest; neither any thing hid, that shall not be known and come abroad.

1 John 3:7
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Hebrews 10:26-29
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, [27] But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. [28] He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: [29] Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

2 Peter 1:5-11
And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; [6] And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; [7] And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. [8] For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. [9] But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. [10] Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: [11] For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

1 Cor. 4:4-5
For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord. [5] Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

1 Cor. 9:27
But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Not even Paul considers himself assured

Romans 11:22
Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

[Anna]

Dairygirl,

How do you know how Catholics repent?
Are you an expert on Catholic thought?

After all, we [i]are[/i] Catholics, and we know how and why we repent!
We repent because we come to the realization that our own choices have caused us to separate ourselves from God, Who is All Good and deserving of all our love. We are truly sorry for our bad choices, and desire to reconcile ourselves to Our Lord, to re-unite ourselves with Him, to confess our sins, to do penance, and to commit to walking more closely with Him from now on.

Sorry if you don't find that Scriptural. I find it very Scriptural. I also find it very Apostolic.

(Perhaps try reading the parable of the prodigal son.)

Pax Christi. <><

Edited April 5, 2004 by Anna

[ransom]

You missed one:

CANON I.-If any one saith, that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature, or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema.

It really helps to read a document straight from the source before assuming that what you've cut and pasted is the only teaching on a subject. Especially when dealing with the Catholic Church.

all peace and love under the Son,
ransom

[Brother Adam]

FYI tidbit of the day: Did you know for the act of perfect contrition one must be heartily sorry for their sin not because of a fear of punishment, but because one has disspleased God.

[Anna]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' date='Apr 5 2004, 04:08 PM'] The difference between Catholic and Protestant salvation:

When a protestant sins, she knows that even if she sins, her faith has saved her. The Protestant will repent out of gratitude, wheras Catholics will repent out of necessity. [/quote]
The difference between Catholic and protestant "salvation:"

[i]Catholic version:[/i] The Apostles (the first Catholic bishops) taught the early Christians (Catholics) to repent of their sins: to be truly sorry for having offended God.

[i]Protestant version:[/i] Martin Luther, father of protestantism, taught a new (man-made) doctrine: "Be a sinner and sin vigorously; but even more vigorously believe and delight in Christ who is victor over sin, death and the world.... It is sufficient that we recognize through the wealth of God's glory the lamb who bears the sins of the world; from this sin does not sever us, even if thousands, thousands of times in one day we should fornicate or murder." ~ Letter to Philip Melanchthon, August 1, 1521
(aka, Once Saved Always Saved.) Luther's followers believe that their souls are like heaps of dung, covered over with Christ's blood, as if covered in snow (but still filthy, disgusting, and stinking underneath). And they rejoice in that! Incredible.

No where in Scripture will you find Our Lord or the Apostles encouraging Christ's followers to sin all they want, and rejoice and be thankful that it's all ok because they're already saved.

Nowhere is Christ's Blood used as a security blanket to go on sinning.

No! Jesus instructs, "Go, [b]and sin no more.[/b]"
Paul exhorts, fight the good fight, persevere to the end.

Catholics are taught that we are made new creatures through Christ's great sacrifice. We don't deserve it, and we are most grateful. We hope never to take His gift for granted, and we're sorry every time we depart from His Commandments.
Rather than continuing merrily in our sins and just being thankful, we are called to [i]true repentence[/i]. We must turn around, renounce our sins, and return to Christ's embrace.

Pax Christi. <><

Pax Christi. <><

Edited April 5, 2004 by Anna