Catholic/christian Ties To Paganism

[infinitelord1]

hi all, its been a while since i visited the site. recently i have come across some material that has presented evidence of very early paganistic beliefs that were tied into christianity some time ago. Some examples of that would be Zeitgeist: the movie and various other articles on the internet. im curious about what some of you people think about this stuff.

To start...the birth of Jesus (as known by catholics/protestants) is Dec 25. Dec 25 happens to be the day that the sun is "reborn" after sitting motionless for 3 consecutive days during the winter solstice. This day also happens to be the day in which the sun, the north star, and the 3 stars which make up the hunters belt (hunter constellation) are perfectly alligned. In other words, the 3 wisemen from the east(3 stars of hunters belt) follow the star in order to find the infant baby Jesus (the birth of the sun).

This same astrological metaphor has been applied to various other religions throughout history before/after Jesus' time. I cant really think of it off hand, but the movie Zeitgeist explains it all. The movie also makes reference to how similar old testament characters are (i.e. Moses) to characters in paganistic religions in various other cultures.

has anybody seen Zeitgeist? What do you think of these ideas?

[Laudate_Dominum]

Dude!! I haven't seen you in forever! What's up!?

[Nihil Obstat]

Ugh... I hate talking about this.
Nothing against this thread in particular. I just feel like I say the same tired things over and over again.

Within the Catholic Church there is a widely accepted theory that, when Christianity and especially Catholicism appear to copy Paganism, it is actually a result of Paganism being a precursor to Jesus Christ, similar to how the Old Testament reveals far more meaning in the context of the New.
So when we have, for instance, Egyptian gods dying and rising again, this is because these myths were intentionally placed into that culture by God to act as a pre-Christian guide to Christ. God is revealed in all of Creation in this way.
Similar with any astrological connections, all of Creation points towards its Creator.

[Winchester]

I'd like to say you really made good use of the space in your avatar--there's hardly any emptiness at all. Very efficient.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='07 October 2009 - 03:41 PM' timestamp='1254944515' post='1980119']
has anybody seen Zeitgeist?
[/quote]
I've seen it a number of times. Have you seen Zeitgeist Addendum? I found it to be much more enjoyable. lulz.

:lolcat:

[Winchester]

:lolsatan:

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='07 October 2009 - 02:41 PM' timestamp='1254944515' post='1980119']
To start...the birth of Jesus (as known by catholics/protestants) is Dec 25. Dec 25 happens to be the day that the sun is "reborn" after sitting motionless for 3 consecutive days during the winter solstice. This day also happens to be the day in which the sun, the north star, and the 3 stars which make up the hunters belt (hunter constellation) are perfectly alligned. In other words, the 3 wisemen from the east(3 stars of hunters belt) follow the star in order to find the infant baby Jesus (the birth of the sun).
[/quote]

Christmas probably wasn't celebrated until after Christianity was legalized by Constantine.

Celebrating Christ's birth on December 25th was probably a smart way to Christianize a pagan holidy. If people were going to be celebrating anyway, why not have them celebrate the birth of the true God rather than the bith of a false god?

Edited October 7, 2009 by Resurrexi

[Church Punk]

It is kind of ironic (maybe it was intentional) that the Zeitgeist film is basically about people following things blindly and taking what was told to you as truth.

The same people who tote this film as being true, have missed its entire message.

They talk about these situations, events and Christianity using maybe 25% truth and maybe 75% fabrication.

For the astrological it is an affirmation and a precursor like Nihil Obstat said. When you look around our order and the universe, do you see chaos, or order? Our solar system is a very well thought out design the earth just in the right place to support life. Jupiter acts as a gravity magnet to block incoming asteroids from hitting the Earth. Our constellations were basically made by people, but they were put their by God.

You have all of these hints in ancient paganistic mythology of Christ figures, virgin birth and resurrections. Then you have the Jews, a group of people who throughout all of history insist God has hammered into them morals, and teachings with afflictions and prophet that also insist that out of this tribe will come the saviour of the world.

Then suddenly in the fullness of time you hear foot steps, rumors of the miracles actually happening, the signs and finally the fulfillment of the all the scriptures, the myths and the stars. Christ comes to Earth teaches us, suffers on the cross and rises again.

All of this sounds like the unfolding of the truth to me!

Then if we look at the later half of the film. Sept 11…They make claims that the world trade centres were rigged from with in to be demolished. How can they prove that they werent designed to do this? Are they structural engineers? If you do some research, you will notice that many many many buildings all around the world are designed to sort of implode like this as to not destroy the entire city with it if catastrophe occurs.

The pentagon – Do they really know what happens when an airplane travelling at max speed full of fuel hits a building designed to be impenetrable? My guess would be a lot like what happened.

Anyway the point is don’t take these things as truth, the film is designed to be believable and deceive many. What matters is what you believe. Do you want to believe some nut conspiracy theorist over our holy mother Church with 2000 years of tradition, stemming from Jesus and his apostles and eye witnesses?

[Winchester]

[quote name='Church Punk' date='07 October 2009 - 05:05 PM' timestamp='1254949513' post='1980218']
Then if we look at the later half of the film. Sept 11…They make claims that the world trade centres were rigged from with in to be demolished. How can they prove that they werent designed to do this? Are they structural engineers? If you do some research, you will notice that many many many buildings all around the world are designed to sort of implode like this as to not destroy the entire city with it if catastrophe occurs.
[/quote]
They have that in there? Then they are idiots. [i]Anyone [/i]who believes the towers collapsed for any reason other than the impacts and subsequent fires is an idiot.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Winchester' date='07 October 2009 - 04:14 PM' timestamp='1254950064' post='1980223']
They have that in there? Then they are idiots. [i]Anyone [/i]who believes the towers collapsed for any reason other than the impacts and subsequent fires is an idiot.
[/quote]
(and we know that his testimony is true........ because he's a fireman! )

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='07 October 2009 - 04:41 PM' timestamp='1254944515' post='1980119']
hi all, its been a while since i visited the site. recently i have come across some material that has presented evidence of very early paganistic beliefs that were tied into christianity some time ago. Some examples of that would be Zeitgeist: the movie and various other articles on the internet. im curious about what some of you people think about this stuff.

To start...the birth of Jesus (as known by catholics/protestants) is Dec 25. Dec 25 happens to be the day that the sun is "reborn" after sitting motionless for 3 consecutive days during the winter solstice. This day also happens to be the day in which the sun, the north star, and the 3 stars which make up the hunters belt (hunter constellation) are perfectly alligned. In other words, the 3 wisemen from the east(3 stars of hunters belt) follow the star in order to find the infant baby Jesus (the birth of the sun).

This same astrological metaphor has been applied to various other religions throughout history before/after Jesus' time. I cant really think of it off hand, but the movie Zeitgeist explains it all. The movie also makes reference to how similar old testament characters are (i.e. Moses) to characters in paganistic religions in various other cultures.

has anybody seen Zeitgeist? What do you think of these ideas?
[/quote]
Everyone else will give ya the correct answer, I just want to say welcome back

[Aloysius]

my anthropology professor once went through a list of many of Zeitgeist's flat out lies (when it talks about the pagan myth parallels to the Christian story). He picked one, the Egyptian one, because he knows a lot about Egyptology. Frankly, pretty much everything that Zeitgeist claims Egyptian myths parallel to the stories of Jesus are lies. flat out lies. as in there's no evidence, there's no basis, there's no facts involved at all. that's from someone with four degrees in anthropology, who specializes in Egyptology. it's simply not true.

that said, there are some pagan myths with some parallels to the Christian story, because the Christian story is a general archetype of a human story, it's the story which answers the human question. so obviously, people around the world asking the same question will develop some similar answer. but if someone starts listing off similarities between a pagan myth and the Christian story and starts getting more and more specific (saying there were 12 disciples, a birth in a manger, a death on a cross, et cetera...) then ask for their sources. Zeitgeist is not a reliable source, the only reason it goes unchallenged is because no one with any credentials in the fields of mythology and such would even bother to watch the thing let alone take the time to debunk it.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='07 October 2009 - 10:55 PM' timestamp='1254970500' post='1980574']
my anthropology professor once went through a list of many of Zeitgeist's flat out lies (when it talks about the pagan myth parallels to the Christian story). He picked one, the Egyptian one, because he knows a lot about Egyptology. Frankly, pretty much everything that Zeitgeist claims Egyptian myths parallel to the stories of Jesus are lies. flat out lies. as in there's no evidence, there's no basis, there's no facts involved at all. that's from someone with four degrees in anthropology, who specializes in Egyptology. it's simply not true.

that said, there are some pagan myths with some parallels to the Christian story, because the Christian story is a general archetype of a human story, it's the story which answers the human question. so obviously, people around the world asking the same question will develop some similar answer. but if someone starts listing off similarities between a pagan myth and the Christian story and starts getting more and more specific (saying there were 12 disciples, a birth in a manger, a death on a cross, et cetera...) then ask for their sources. Zeitgeist is not a reliable source, the only reason it goes unchallenged is because no one with any credentials in the fields of mythology and such would even bother to watch the thing let alone take the time to debunk it.
[/quote]


Thanks brother. I remember back when the Zeitgeist movie was new I was able to blast most of the claims after a couple hours of research and I'm not an anything. I do remember that many of the claims were just so off the wall compared to actual scholarship that I lost interest in studying the entire film.

I imagine there are numerous threads that refute the movie if anyone feels like digging around.

[Laudate_Dominum]

Zeitgeist II the Addendum on the other hand... Lulz.

[Aloysius]

ahh a quick internet search reveals someone else is onto that fact about the Egyptian myths and provides the details I forgot:

[quote]The Zeitgeist movie makes these claims about the Egyptian god Horus:
• He was born on December 25th of a virgin (Isis Mary)
• A star in the East proclaimed his arrival
• Three kings came to adore the new-born “savior”
• He became a prodigious teacher at age 12
• At age 30 he was “baptized” and began a “ministry”
• Horus had twelve “disciples”
• Horus was betrayed
• He was crucified
• He was buried for three days
• He was resurrected after three days

If true, this would certainly be unsettling to followers of Christ. However, examining each point in detail is quite revealing. First, it is true that Egyptian legend has Horus being born to Isis. But where did the trailing name of “Mary” that used in the movie come from? [b]No mention in any Egyptian literature links the name Isis to the name Mary[/b]. [b][u]Isis was also not a virgin[/b][/u]. No account of Horus’ birth makes this statement. Isis was not a virgin, but the widow of Osiris, another Egyptian god who conceived Horus with Isis. Finally, [b]Horus was supposedly born during the month of Khoiak (Oct/Nov)[/b], and not on December 25th, a fact which does not help their claim of marrying the stories of Horus to Jesus anyway because the Bible never assigns a birth date to Christ.

Next, the film states that a star in the East announced his birth and that three kings came to bring gifts to the “savior.” However, when stories detailing the birth of Horus are examined, [b]there is no star or three kings who come to visit him[/b]. Trying to link this to Christianity fails in any event as the account of Christ’s birth in Matthew has magi (wise men, not kings) coming to Jesus with their actual number not being stated. Clearly, the movie is using the traditions of December 25 and three wise men, not the Bible, to link Jesus and Horus. Finally, the movie calls Horus a “savior.” There are [b]no descriptions of Horus being a savior to anyone[/b] or serving in that capacity.

This is an important point: the movie takes extreme liberty in the quick and subtle uses of Christian words and phrases that in no way accurately describe the actual pagan god or his attributes. This is seen again in the statements made of Horus being “baptized” and starting a “ministry.” The only accounts remotely related to Horus and water are the stories told of Osiris (his father who is sometimes combined in ancient accounts with Horus to form one individual) whose [b]body was cut up into 14 pieces by his enemy, Set, and scattered throughout the earth. Isis supposedly found each part of the body and after having Osiris float in the Nile, he came back to life or became the lord of the underworld[/b] [baptism? lol], depending on which account is read. In any event, stating that Horus was “baptized” is simply playing fast and loose with Christian terminology and is another obvious attempt to link mythology and the Bible.

In addition, Horus had no “ministry.” Horus becoming a teacher at age 12 (mimicking Jesus’ account at the temple as a youth) is nowhere to be found in accounts of Horus; [b]neither are there any statements to the effect that he had 12 “disciples.”[/b] According to the Horus accounts, Horus had four semi-gods that were followers and some indications of 16 human followers and an unknown number of blacksmiths that went into battle with him. [b]No accounts of Horus being betrayed are found in his portrayals and he certainly did not die by crucifixion[/b] in any account. There is an incident described in one story of Horus being torn to pieces, with Iris requesting that the crocodile god pull him out of the water he was placed into, but the movie does not mention this as it does not fit in with their agenda. Further, the movie puts the account of Horus as originating in 3,000 B.C., which predates the invention and practice of crucifixion, so there is another historical problem that must be overcome.

[b]The claims of Horus being buried for three days and resurrected are not to be found in any ancient Egyptian texts either.[/b] Some accounts have Osiris being brought back to life by Isis and going to be the lord of the underworld. But there is no mention of a burial for three days and no mention of his physically coming out of a grave in the same physical body he went in with and never dying again. And there is certainly no account of Horus dying for others as Jesus did.

In the end, the attempt to prove Horus was a picture/forerunner of Jesus simply fails from lack of any historical evidence. The movie continues in this same vein with all the other mythological pagan deities that pre-dated Jesus (Attis, Krishna, etc.) As just another simple example, the Zeitgeist movie says that Hindu’s Krishna was also crucified and resurrected. However, Hindu teachings clearly state that Krishna was killed by an arrow shot from a hunter who accidentally hit him in his heel and after he died, he ascended to be with Brahman. None of the pagan deities, when accurately examined, mirror the Son of God recorded in the New Testament gospels.[/quote]
http://www.gotquestions.org/zeitgeist-movie.html


it's actually quite transparent and funny to anyone who knows anything about Egyptian mythology. it'd be like if someone tried to convince you that Islam was the same as Christianity by telling you that Mohammad had been crucified and resurrected et cetera et cetera; what they did was just pick the name of a pagan god and plugged his name into the stories of Jesus.