rkwright Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='10 October 2009 - 03:36 PM' timestamp='1255207002' post='1982528'] Your theory cannot work, Todd. Adam could not have corrupted God's word when he relayed it to Eve because he did not get have a fallen nature. He had not sinned, and Man was still perfect. Therefore he could not have misled Eve by getting God's commandments wrong. EDIT: Addition for clarity. Before the fall of Man, Man's nature was perfectly in tune with God's. Therefore, for Adam to misstate what he was told by God, it would have had to be intentional. For Adam to intentionally misstate what God had told him would have been sinful. Man was not yet fallen, therefore Adam had not yet sinner, therefore he could not have misstated what God told him. [/quote] Very good point. Edit: I have to say... amazing argument. I love little arguments like this. Bravo Edited October 10, 2009 by rkwright Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 Below is a link to a website that provides information on Gideon Jasper Ouseley and the spurious "Gospel of the Holy Twelve." [url="http://www.tektonics.org/lp/ouseley01.html"][u]On Gideon Ouseley and "The Gospel of the Holy Twelve"[/u][/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 [quote name='rkwright' date='10 October 2009 - 04:10 PM' timestamp='1255209043' post='1982562'] Very good point. Edit: I have to say... amazing argument. I love little arguments like this. Bravo [/quote] Why thank you!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
todd_vetter33 Posted October 10, 2009 Author Share Posted October 10, 2009 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='10 October 2009 - 04:16 PM' timestamp='1255209364' post='1982569'] Why thank you!! [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/D.gif[/img] [/quote] Very intuitive Response based on the information presented... Seems we are waking up. Now apply this amazing thinking to what is posted for the original topic of discussion. I want this kind of objective criticism applied to the time line shared. Very respectfully, Todd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 (edited) [quote name='todd_vetter33' date='10 October 2009 - 06:46 PM' timestamp='1255214774' post='1982618'] I want this kind of objective criticism applied to the time line shared. [/quote] You mean the time line that outlines the Papacy as evil? Oh and in case you missed it, Nihil was congratulated for his rebuttal against you. He wasn't agreeing with you but opposing you. Edited October 10, 2009 by HisChildForever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
todd_vetter33 Posted October 11, 2009 Author Share Posted October 11, 2009 (edited) [quote name='HisChildForever' date='10 October 2009 - 05:57 PM' timestamp='1255215441' post='1982624'] You mean the time line that outlines the Papacy as evil? Oh and in case you missed it, Nihil was congratulated for his rebuttal against you. He wasn't agreeing with you but opposing you. [/quote] I am aware of the amazing speculation Nihil was able to come up with. Question to ask is this. Did God give him the answer to speak? I was commending him for beginning to use his brain and think for himself. Though Adam and Eve were pure and free of Sin. They were in a state of Ignorance. At the time Adam Added to the word of God this was not a sin since God did not command Adam not to add to the word of God. It's because he did add to the word of God that Adam and Eve was able to be open to deception. Lets recap exactly what God Spoke according to the bible. Genesis 2 "Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; [sup][b][size="2"]17[/size][/b][/sup] but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die." [color="#0000ff"]After this God made Eve[/color]. [color="#0000ff"]Then we see Satan tempt Eve. [/color] "Has God indeed said, 'You shall not eat of every tree of the garden'?" [color="#0000ff"]Satan presents half the truth of the word of God. [/color] [sup][b][size="2"]2[/size][/b][/sup] And the woman said to the serpent, "We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; [sup][b][size="2"]3[/size][/b][/sup] but of the fruit of the tree which [i]is[/i] in the midst of the garden, God has said, 'You shall not eat it, [color="#ff0000"]nor shall you touch it[/color], lest you die.'" [sup][b][size="2"]4[/size][/b][/sup] Then the serpent said to the woman, "You will not surely die. [sup][b][size="2"]5[/size][/b][/sup] For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." [color="#0000ff"] [color="#0000ff"][/color]In the last part of Verse 4 and 5 we see Satan playing on the fact that Eve had no concept of death or evil and was taking advantage of her ignorance even though she was in a state of purity due to lack of sin. Adam adding to the word of God thought he was doing Eve a favor by telling her not to touch it even though God did not say these words. God confirms what he spoke to Adam when he comes to visit Adam later in the day. [/color] [b][sup][size="2"]11[/size][/sup][/b] And He said, "Who told you that you [i]were[/i] naked? Have [u][b]you[/b][/u] eaten from the tree of which [u][b]I commanded you[/b][/u] that you should not eat?" [color="#0000ff"]We do not see God take credit for [/color]"[color="#ff0000"]nor shall you touch it[/color]" [color="#0000ff"]because God did not speak those words[/color]. [color="#0000ff"]If you also pay close attention, God is addressing only Adam because God did not speak the word to Eve. [/color] [color="#0000ff"]To say that Adam was perfect and unable to corrupt the word of God is to say they were not in the capacity to be deceived. Yet we find ourselves as a human race in the mess we are in because deception did happen. I'm sure you are proud of Nihil's amazing speculation. Question you must ask him is did God speak this truth in his ear to speak or did he bare false witness with an asumption by not recognizing that Adam and Eve were new to creation and did not know good from Evil. [/color] [b][sup][size="2"]22[/size][/sup][/b] Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. [color="#0000ff"]They were certainly not ignorant of Death any more for they lost eternal life on the day they went against the word of God. This is the case for all mankind who continue to go against the Law of God that defines the sins that you are to repent from. Eve could have eaten from the tree with out any consequence since God did not command her not to eat of it. This is why their Eyes were not opened until Adam ate of the tree. [color="#000000"]6 So when the woman saw that the tree [i]was[/i] good for food, that it [i]was[/i] pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make [i]one[/i] wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate. [sup][b][size="2"]7[/size][/b][/sup] Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they [i]were[/i] naked; [/color][color="#0000ff"]Satan used her ignorance and the fact that Adam added to the word of God in order to get Eve to eat of the tree with out consequence. This in turn caused Adam to think nothing would happen since the fruit had no visable effect on Eve and so he then was deceive to partake. Eve did not loose her rightousness until Adam broke the Law God Gave Him. At that moment both of their eyes were opened[/color] If you speculate truth. how can you repent from baring false witness? God Bless [/color] Edited October 11, 2009 by todd_vetter33 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
todd_vetter33 Posted October 11, 2009 Author Share Posted October 11, 2009 [quote name='HisChildForever' date='10 October 2009 - 05:57 PM' timestamp='1255215441' post='1982624'] You mean the time line that outlines the Papacy as evil? [/quote] The time line outlines objective truth. If the Papacy looks bad based on what is presented and the presentation presents truth. The end result is what it is. Catholic or not, if the spirit of God was in you, Would you continue to be Evil? Christ says those who walk in the day no longer stumble. Not because they have a license to sin freely, But because they have made the choice to repent and sin no more. God fills them and directs them just as Christ took direction from the heavenly parent and did nothing of himself. God Bless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
todd_vetter33 Posted October 11, 2009 Author Share Posted October 11, 2009 The Lesson to be learned from all of this is that Sin even in ignorance is still a sin. At this point in earths history there is no excuse for sin since God has provided us with the wisdom of the Law and 6000 years of evidence for the end result of continuance in Sin. We just have to keep that which is good. See the Law.. it's the charater of God and when we walk in that Character we are numbered unto God's children. God Bless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkwright Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 You missed the importance of Nihil's argument. It hinges on the fact that man's nature was perfectly in tune with God. Therefore to misstate God's law, His one law, would have to be intentional. More importantly, if like you said (which is 100% speculation BTW) that Adam thought he was doing Eve a favor by telling her not to touch it, then once again Adam KNEW he was lying, even if he had good intentions. Once again your in Nihil's situation. Lying with a good end in mind is still a sin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 (edited) [quote name='todd_vetter33' date='10 October 2009 - 09:55 PM' timestamp='1255226155' post='1982743'] I was commending him for beginning to use his brain and think for himself. [/quote] And I'm sure it means a lot coming from you. He's been using his brain for at least three months. Of course, he hasn't written a fifty page research paper in a filthy warren crowded with cats, old newspapers and the mummified remains of his parents, but not everyone can be a raving lunatic genuis. I can snark better than you. Be polite to my friends or I will rescind my oath of leaving you alone. Edited October 11, 2009 by Winchester Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
todd_vetter33 Posted October 11, 2009 Author Share Posted October 11, 2009 (edited) [quote name='rkwright' date='10 October 2009 - 10:25 PM' timestamp='1255231524' post='1982810'] You missed the importance of Nihil's argument. It hinges on the fact that man's nature was perfectly in tune with God. Therefore to misstate God's law, His one law, would have to be intentional. More importantly, if like you said (which is 100% speculation BTW) that Adam thought he was doing Eve a favor by telling her not to touch it, then once again Adam KNEW he was lying, even if he had good intentions. Once again your in Nihil's situation. Lying with a good end in mind is still a sin. [/quote] You have three options you can take away from the lesson to be learned by the Fall of Adam and Eve as far as this thread is concerned.' 1. You can take what Nihil says to be truth from God and fact. 2. You can take what I said is truth from God and fact since i claim it was the voice of God who gives me what to speak. 3. If you choose option one or option two you have chosen unwisely and learned nothing. You should be seeking to be taught by God, God's children will hear his voice and be of the truth. 1 Thessalonians 4:9 But concerning brotherly love you have no need that I should write to you, for you yourselves are [b]taught[/b] by [b]God[/b] to love one another; John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be [b]taught[/b] by [b]God[/b].' Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me. Jesus answered; Thou sayest that I am, yea, a King I am. To this end was I born and for this cause came I unto the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. [b][u]Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice[/u][/b]. Pilate said unto him, what is truth? [u]Jesus said, Truth is from heaven. Pilate said, Then truth is not on earth. Jesus said unto Pilate, [/u][b]Believe thou, that truth is on earth amongst those who receive and obey it. They are of the truth who judge righteously[/b]. Edited October 11, 2009 by todd_vetter33 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
todd_vetter33 Posted October 11, 2009 Author Share Posted October 11, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Winchester' date='10 October 2009 - 11:03 PM' timestamp='1255233784' post='1982854'] And I'm sure it means a lot coming from you. He's been using his brain for at least three months. Of course, he hasn't written a fifty page research paper in a filthy warren crowded with cats, old newspapers and the mummified remains of his parents, but not everyone can be a raving lunatic genuis. I can snark better than you. Be polite to my friends or I will rescind my oath of leaving you alone. [/quote] I am asking for you to not be polite. I am making claims that the entire Christian world is in a state of deception. This should call for an investigation into my claims to prove my claim to be false. I invite your objective Criticism. This is all i have asked for since the beginning of this thread. Please indulge me and let me know that I have not strayed from the pillar and foundation of truth by illustrating for me any page or testimony in the 55 page document where I am not telling truth based on what is presented in correlation to the prophecies that Christ claimed to fulfill. It's all Catholic doctrine or testimony from Christian history which is built on Catholic Doctrine so you should be familiar with this information if you are of the truth. If you are already deceived, then there is nothing in this that can deceive you further. If you are already saved, you are hearing God's voice and God will tell you exacly what is truth and what is false. God Bless Edited October 11, 2009 by todd_vetter33 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 [quote name='todd_vetter33' date='11 October 2009 - 12:26 AM' timestamp='1255235219' post='1982885'] You can take what I said is truth from God and fact since i claim it was the voice of God who gives me what to speak. [/quote] This right here pretty much discredits everything you say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 [quote name='todd_vetter33' date='10 October 2009 - 11:26 PM' timestamp='1255235219' post='1982885'] You have three options you can take away from the lesson to be learned by the Fall of Adam and Eve as far as this thread is concerned.' 1. You can take what Nihil says to be truth from God and fact. 2. You can take what I said is truth from God and fact since i claim it was the voice of God who gives me what to speak. 3. If you choose option one or option two you have chosen unwisely and learned nothing. You should be seeking to be taught by God, God's children will hear his voice and be of the truth. [/quote] That's such a stupid dichotomy I don't even know how to begin addressing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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