Christian Confusion On Crucifixion

[todd_vetter33]

[quote name='T-Bone _' date='09 October 2009 - 09:03 PM' timestamp='1255140180' post='1982136']
Are you saying he would have slept in.
[/quote]


Evidence of Quality Catholic education??? Perhaps!

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='T-Bone _' date='09 October 2009 - 09:03 PM' timestamp='1255140180' post='1982136']
Are you saying he would have slept in.
[/quote]
Well it really depends on what he was doing on Sunday night. Tough to sleep in when the sun rises so early, and they really didn't have much in the way of good blinds or curtains, but when you're really tired sometimes you can sleep through it.
Also it depends on how whiny Peter was being.

[rkwright]

[quote name='todd_vetter33' date='09 October 2009 - 07:50 PM' timestamp='1255135816' post='1982057']
The point is that all written gospel testimonies are corrupted by men. The gospel will go to the world only when God puts the gospel in your mouth to speak.

I guess you too have not kept up with the conversation.

Please see the link from the original post and check it for objective truth.

Then we can carry an intelligent conversation.

missing from your illustration is 3 nights.. Keep trying


Very respectfully

Todd Vetter
[/quote]

I understand 3 nights doesn't match up. Unless there is something like what formos was saying with Roman numbers.

I have not read the 55 page document, simply because most of the argument you've posted here has been based on the 3 days variance and then the Exodus prophecy not being fulfilled perfectly. But I'm not convinced this disproves the Bible or proves that the Bible has been corrupted.

The truth is this. We put our faith in Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ gave us a Church. He promised that His Church would not fall into error. His Church gave us the Scriptures. This is why we believe in the Scriptures.

[todd_vetter33]

[quote name='rkwright' date='09 October 2009 - 09:12 PM' timestamp='1255140743' post='1982153']
I understand 3 nights doesn't match up. Unless there is something like what formos was saying with Roman numbers.

I have not read the 55 page document, simply because most of the argument you've posted here has been based on the 3 days variance and then the Exodus prophecy not being fulfilled perfectly. But I'm not convinced this disproves the Bible or proves that the Bible has been corrupted.

The truth is this. We put our faith in Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ gave us a Church. He promised that His Church would not fall into error. His Church gave us the Scriptures. This is why we believe in the Scriptures.
[/quote]


Exodus 12 prophecy was fulfilled perfectly. Just not portrayed as fulfilled by Catholic tradtion, Christian tradition, or currently accepted Catholic Doctrine. Three days and nights was also fulfilled when the correct day (Wednesday) and year 30 AD is chosen in concert with the laws of moses and testimony of the Christ for the crucifixion.

you will do well to spend some time on the study shared. If Error is found in the Catholic church, how credible is the claim that the Catholic church is the true church?

god bless

Edited October 10, 2009 by todd_vetter33

[rkwright]

To those reading this thread... Todd linked to "The Gospel of the Twelve" in one of his cites. Wiki doesn't have much anything on it. Catholic Encyclopedia recognizes its existence...

[quote]The name gospel, as designating a written account of Christ's words and deeds, has been, and is still, applied to a large number of narratives connected with Christ's life, which circulated both before and after the composition of our Third Gospel (cf. Luke 1:1-4). The titles of some fifty such works have come down to us, a fact which shows the intense interest which centred, at an early date, in the Person and work of Christ. it is only, however, in connexion with twenty of these "gospels" that some information has been preserved. Their names, as given by Harnack (Chronologie, I, 589 sqq.), are as follows: —

1-4. The Canonical Gospels
5. The Gospel according to the Hebrews.
6. The Gospel of Peter.
7. The Gospel according to the Egyptians
8. The Gospel of Matthias.
9. The Gospel of Philip.
10. The Gospel of Thomas.
11. The Proto-Evangelium of James.
12. The Gospel of Nicodemus (Acta Pilati).
13.The Gospel of the Twelve Apostles.
14.The Gospel of Basilides.
15.The Gospel of Valentinus.
16.The Gospel of Marcion.
17.The Gospel of Eve.
18.The Gospel of Judas.
19.The writing Genna Marias.
20.The Gospel Teleioseos.
Despite the early date which is sometimes claimed for some of these works, it is not likely that any one of them, outside our canonical Gospels, should be reckoned among the attempts at narrating the life of Christ, of which St. Luke speaks in the prologue to his Gospel. Most of them, as far as can be made out are late productions, the apocryphal character of which is generally admitted by contemporary scholars (see APOCRYPHA).
It is indeed impossible, at the present day, to describe the precise manner in which out of the numerous works ascribed to some Apostle, or simply bearing the name of gospel, only four, two of which are not ascribed to Apostles, came to be considered as sacred and canonical. It remains true, however, that all the early testimony which has a distinct bearing on the number of the canonical Gospels recognizes four such Gospels and none besides. Thus, Eusebius (died 340), when sorting out the universally received books of the Canon, in distinction from those which some have questioned writes: "And here, among the first, must be placed the holy quaternion of the Gospels", while he ranks the "Gospel according to the Hebrews" among the second, that is, among the disputed writings (Church History III.25). Clement of Alexandria (died about 220) and Tertullian (died 220) were familiar with our four Gospels, frequently quoting and commenting on them. The last-named writer speaks also of the Old Latin version known to himself and to his readers, and by so doing carries us back beyond his time. The saintly Bishop of Lyons, Irenæus (died 202), who had known Polycarp in Asia Minor, not only admits and quotes our four Gospels, but argues that they must be just four, no more and no less. He says: "It is not possible that the Gospels be either more or fewer than they are. For since there are four zones of the world in which we live, and four principal winds, while the Church is scattered throughout the world, and the pillar and ground of the Church is the Gospel and the Spirit of life; it is fitting that we should have four pillars, breathing out immortality on every side and vivifying our flesh. . . The living creatures are quadriform, and the Gospel is quadriform, as is also the course followed by the Lord" (Against Heresies III.11.8). About the time when St. Irenæus gave this explicit testimony to our four Gospels, the Canon of Muratori bore likewise witness to them, as did also the Peshito and other early Syriac translations, and the various Coptic versions of the New Testament. The same thing must be said with regard to the Syriac harmony of the canonical Gospels, which was framed by St. Justin's disciple, Tatian, and which is usually referred to under its Greek name of Diatessaron (To dia tessaron Euaggelion). The recent discovery of this work has allowed Harnack to infer, from some of its particulars, that it was based on a still earlier harmony, that made by St. Hippolytus of Antioch, of our four Gospels. It has also set at rest the vexed question as to St. Justin's use of the canonical Gospels. "For since Tatian was a disciple of Justin, it is inconceivable that he should have worked on quite different Gospels from those of his teacher, while each held the Gospels he used to be the books of primary importance" (Adeney). Indeed, even before the discovery of Tatian's "Diatessaron", an unbiased study of Justin's authentic writings had made it clear that the holy doctor used exclusively our canonical Gospels under the name of Memoirs of the Apostles.

Of these testimonies of the second century two are particularly worthy of notice, viz, those of St. Justin and St. Irenæus. As the former writer belongs to the first part of that century, and speaks of the canonical Gospels as a well-known and fully authentic collection, it is only natural to think that at his time of writing (about A.D. 145) the same Gospels, and they only, had been recognized as sacred records of Christ's life, and that they had been regarded as such at least as early as the beginning of the second century of our era. The testimony of the latter apologist is still more important. "The very absurdity of his reasoning testifies to the well-established position attained in his day by the four Gospels, to the exclusion of all others. Irenæus' bishop was Potinus who lived to the age of 90, and Irenæus had known Polycarp in Asia Minor. Here are links of connexion with the past which go back beyond the beginning of the second century" (Adeney).

In the writings of the Apostolic Fathers one does not, indeed, meet with unquestionable evidence in favour of only four canonical Gospels. But this is only what one might expect from the works of men who lived in the very century in which these inspired records were composed, and in which the word Gospel was yet applied to the glad tidings of salvation, and not to the written accounts thereof.

[/quote]

[T-Bone _]

[quote name='todd_vetter33' date='09 October 2009 - 08:09 PM' timestamp='1255140550' post='1982146']
Evidence of Quality Catholic education??? Perhaps!
[/quote]

Perhaps you're unfamiliar with humor?

[todd_vetter33]

[quote name='T-Bone _' date='09 October 2009 - 10:00 PM' timestamp='1255143616' post='1982182']
Perhaps you're unfamiliar with humor?
[/quote]


That was my attempt at humor. That I'm not good at! LOL

[todd_vetter33]

[quote name='rkwright' date='09 October 2009 - 09:50 PM' timestamp='1255143009' post='1982179']
To those reading this thread... Todd linked to "The Gospel of the Twelve" in one of his cites. Wiki doesn't have much anything on it. Catholic Encyclopedia recognizes its existence...


[/quote]


Thank you for presenting a truthful, objective, and productive response. we are at post 140 and you were the first to do so.

Very Respectfully,

Todd Vetter

Edited October 10, 2009 by todd_vetter33

[Formosus]

Everything I can find on this so called "gospel" of the Holy Twelve seems to show its either a forgery of the 1800s, or perhaps related to later Gnostic writings that date from the second century. The four canonical gospels, unlike these gnostic writings, were written all within the first century A.D. and the Pauline letters were written well within the lifetime of the actual apostles. Also, not every little numerical detail of the OT is referring to a Christological prophecy. You have to look at the texts in their historical context and in many cases these "prophecies" are referring to current events as of the writings. Now this isn't the case with all of them, but one can't go overboard. Further if you want to argue that this text is more important or necessary for understanding the four canonical gospels, then you have to ask, why would God with hold this necessary part of His revelation to us? In essence, then Christianity would have no way of actually following God's teachings until the late 1800s, thus making Christ's promise in the Gospels (that the gates of hell shall not overcome the Church) a false promise. Either the Church has in some way preserved accurately the entire corpus of Scripture, or it hasn't and Christianity failed early on, which would mean God failed.

Another thing I have found of this "gospel" of the Twelve is that it seems to be linked intimately the narerene protestant group. Highly suspect if you ask me.

[HisChildForever]

Why Toddy is obsessing over this is my question. Fretting over "Did Jesus rise at 6am for breakfast or at 10pm for late night tea?" is completely irrelevant to the fact that Jesus Christ [i]did[/i] rise from the dead, therefore proving His divinity (at least to those who had yet to get the memo).

[todd_vetter33]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='10 October 2009 - 01:25 AM' timestamp='1255155924' post='1982268']
Why Toddy is obsessing over this is my question. Fretting over "Did Jesus rise at 6am for breakfast or at 10pm for late night tea?" is completely irrelevant to the fact that Jesus Christ [i]did[/i] rise from the dead, therefore proving His divinity (at least to those who had yet to get the memo).
[/quote]


The true worshippers of God will be in spriit and in truth. Born again.. No one enters into the kingdom unless they are born again. I'm sorry I gave the impression I cared. It's the mission of the angles and messengers of God to care. When you enter the kingdom you will be like the angels in heaven.

Isn't it Lovely and amazing How God gives us all a choice. Did you enjoy Going out???? i'm Guessing you read below statement the first time i shared it with you, but you didn't hear a word of it. It was spoken many years ago by Christ just for you, and the many like you. It was shared with you before you left to go be about your own pleasures. Yet you still displayed perfectly why you need to understand it even though your may have already read it.

And Jesus said, I stood in the midst of the world, and in the flesh was I seen and heard, and I found all men glutted with their own pleasures, and drunk with their own follies, and none found I hungry or athirst for the wisdom which is of God. My soul grieveth over the sons and daughters of men because they are blind in their heart, and in their soul are they deaf and hear not my voice.

Why is Being born again a choice?

[b]From the Ages of Ages is the Eternal Thought, and the Thought is the Word, and the Word is the Act, and these Three are one in the Eternal Law,[/b][b] [/b][b]and the Law is with God and the Law proceeds from God.[/b][b] [/b][b]All things are created by Law and without it is not anything created that existeth[/b][b]. [/b][b]In the [/b][b]Word is Life and Substance, the Fire and the Light. The Love and the Wisdom, are One for the Salvation of all. And the Light shineth in darkness[/b][b] [/b]and the darkness concealeth it not. The Word is the one Life-giving Fire, which shining into the world becometh the fire and light of every soul that entereth into the world. I am in the world, and the world is in Me,[b] [/b][b]and the world knoweth it not.[/b][b] [/b]I come to my own House, and my friends receive Me not. [u][b]But as many as receive and obey, to them is given the power to become the Sons and Daughters of God,[/b][/u] even to them who believe in the Holy Name, who are born--not of the will of the blood and flesh, but of God. And the Word is incarnate and dwelleth among us, whose Glory we beheld, full of Grace. Behold the Goodness, and the Truth and the Beauty of God!

Edited October 10, 2009 by todd_vetter33

[todd_vetter33]

[quote name='Formosus' date='10 October 2009 - 12:50 AM' timestamp='1255153800' post='1982258']
Everything I can find on this so called "gospel" of the Holy Twelve seems to show its either a forgery of the 1800s, or perhaps related to later Gnostic writings that date from the second century. The four canonical gospels, unlike these gnostic writings, were written all within the first century A.D. and the Pauline letters were written well within the lifetime of the actual apostles. Also, not every little numerical detail of the OT is referring to a Christological prophecy. You have to look at the texts in their historical context and in many cases these "prophecies" are referring to current events as of the writings. Now this isn't the case with all of them, but one can't go overboard. Further if you want to argue that this text is more important or necessary for understanding the four canonical gospels, then you have to ask, why would God with hold this necessary part of His revelation to us? In essence, then Christianity would have no way of actually following God's teachings until the late 1800s, thus making Christ's promise in the Gospels (that the gates of hell shall not overcome the Church) a false promise. Either the Church has in some way preserved accurately the entire corpus of Scripture, or it hasn't and Christianity failed early on, which would mean God failed.

Another thing I have found of this "gospel" of the Twelve is that it seems to be linked intimately the narerene protestant group. Highly suspect if you ask me.
[/quote]


Precisely! You have differing testimonies of men regarding the credibility of the Gospel. Who is telling the truth? I made a statement in this thread that The Objective study I share can prove that it is not a forgery from the 1800's and that it is not a Gnostic Writing. Gnostic is mearly a title. Evidence within the G-12 text illustrates clearly that it was in the hands of Rome. Evence with in the study clearly illustrates that the 4 bible gospels you now have came from a single written gospel source. It's up to you to take the time to see what I have prepared for you.

Best of All I am sharing this information with you for free.

I wish you all the best,

God Bless

[todd_vetter33]

It appears that no one is interested in this topic even though it has had many views and many replies in debate. What I have discovered is that a human can be programmed to belive anything if only backed by speculations, and pride can cloud the mind and keep it from performing simple math skills, basic reading and comprehension.

It's time for me to move on to a new Forum to share the treasure that God has given me to invest. Each of you have received this talent. Question is... will you invest or be the one who buried your treasure until the master returned to take account?

[rkwright]

[quote name='todd_vetter33' date='10 October 2009 - 04:46 AM' timestamp='1255167989' post='1982298']
Precisely! You have differing testimonies of men regarding the credibility of the Gospel. Who is telling the truth? I made a statement in this thread that The Objective study I share can prove that it is not a forgery from the 1800's and that it is not a Gnostic Writing. Gnostic is mearly a title. Evidence within the G-12 text illustrates clearly that it was in the hands of Rome. Evence with in the study clearly illustrates that the 4 bible gospels you now have came from a single written gospel source. It's up to you to take the time to see what I have prepared for you.

Best of All I am sharing this information with you for free.

I wish you all the best,

God Bless
[/quote]

If the Gospel was in Rome at the time, then the Church decided it was not a truthful Gospel and kept it out of the Bible.

[rkwright]

Just for FYI, this from the prologue of the Gospel of the Holy 12. Kinda explains everything...

[quote]Rev. Ouseley claims that he received a transcription Of the Original Gospel from a Buddhist monastery in Tibet where it is preserved. In this documant the teachings of Jesus includes an admonition for his followers to practice the seventh day sabbath, non-violence to all living creatures and the secret to eternal life.

Rev. Ouseley writes:
"The early Christian Fathers did well their work of destroying the sources and records from which they gathered the information and data put by them in the Bible. But they failed to destroy it all. Some escaped, and as it is discovered here and there by patient research workers, it is astonishing to see how the world has been deceived by the Christian Fathers.

"The Original Gospel is preserved in one of the Buddhist monasteries in Tibet, and is written in Aramaic. These 'correctors' (men authorized to 'correct' the text of Scripture in the interests of what was considered orthodoxy) cut out of the Gospels with minute care certain teachings of Our Lord's which they did not propose to 'follow, namely, those against flesh eating, such as accounts of our Lord's interference, on several occasions, to save animals from ill treatment, and even the interesting and important teachings ever prominent in Eastern scriptures."

We have referred elsewhere to the "correctors" who were hired by the Church Fathers at the Council of Nicea to alter the original text of the Gospels, leaving out those doctrines that were obnoxious to their emperor, Constantine, whom they desired to convert to Christianity, which he opposed. Chief among these objectionable doctrines were the prohibition against the use of flesh meat and alcohol, and the recommendation of kindness to animals, all of which constituted the fundamental doctrines of the teachings of Christ. On this point Udny writes: "The great significance of the corruption of the Text lies rather in the nature of the matter struct out by the 'correctors' than in the amount. It is evident that the 'correctors' and those who appointed them were at least unwilling to denounce their beef and beer, a convenient alliteration for flesh and alcohol."

In the original Sanscrit and Aramaic gospel, the duty of abstaining from meat and wine were emphasized, while in the later versions, it was omitted. Since those who founded the Christian Church, like their emperor, Constantine, were meat eaters and drinkers of wine, naturally they were opposed to these doctrines, whose acceptance would involve a revolutionary transformation of their living habits, they interpreted the first promise to mean, "Thou shalt not kill". implying that the commandment applied only to humans and that the slaughter of animals was not killing.

The Original Gospel, representing the teachings of Christ, the Lord of Love, taught harmlessness and compassion to all living beings, including both animals and humans. For reasons above stated, the Roman Churchmen at Nicea opposed these doctrines and eliminated them from the Gospels, which they radically changed so as to be acceptable to Constantine, who loved the red meats and flowing wine of his midnight feasts too much to accept a religion that prohibited these pleasures, which was a main reason why he so bitterly persecuted the early Christians who advocated these doctrines. For this reason the Church Fathers changed the Gospel in such a way that Love and Compassion were limited only to human beings but the animal expressions of life were excluded from receiving these benefits. But the savior of the Original Gospel, as Christ were represented to be, was a redeemer of the animal world, as he was of men, seeking to alleviate the sufferings of all living beings.[/quote]