Imputation Of Righteousness

[Winchester]

[quote name='Stormstopper' date='07 October 2009 - 02:27 PM' timestamp='1254940060' post='1980065']
I'm guilty of "pencil-pushing"??? Because I quote your own documents? Spare me. I'll bet you you didn't even know that's what Vatican 2 wrote--as you're obviously spending too much time out in the barn milking cows. Instead of thanking me for opeing your eyes, I get the shaft for telling you the truth. Let's cut to the quick. Show me in Scripture or church antiquity where you can find support for Vatican 2 coming up with this fairy tale that good works may be offered to God for SALVATION. Afterall, they said this "sacred" belief went back to "ancient times". So certainly some early father would have believed it. Prove it.
[/quote]
Do you read every other word, or pick out the ones you don't like? I'm trying to figure out if your misunderstanding is accidental or intentional.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='07 October 2009 - 02:28 PM' timestamp='1254940131' post='1980066']


So go ahead and retire on that, but I think you'd be finding the Bahamas aren't quite as luxurious as you think when you live in a gutter next to the guy who cooks rats into his hotdogs that he sells outside the resort to all the poor guys who work folding towels at the poolside for a dollar an hour.
[/quote]
That would be lots of labor, shoving rat meat into the skin. I would bank on denuding the bone and serving it in a soup or as taco meat.

[Selah]

[quote]Selah, if I had a nickel for all the worthless statements you've made, you know very well I could retire in the Bahamas.[/quote]

Ah! My Pride!

[quote]you cannot provide ONE proof-text from any Reformer, past or present that denies the importance of good works, your pointless reference to James, as if we were unaware of it, is a complete waste of time. [/quote]

Why would I provide a Reformer? Am I a Protestant? I'm guessing you haven't read the book of James? The part where it says "A man is justified by works and not by faith alone." "Faith without works is dead." And so forth. But hey, I understand. Martin Luther hated the book of James too. Almost removed it. You know, you can't be Sola Fide and agree with what St. James wrote.

[quote]You are absolutely UNFAMILIAR with your opponent's view and you are only continuing to make a fool of yourself by posting things you don't understand.[/quote]

Ever looked in a mirror?

[quote]So either POST the evidence that you think supports your postion from any Protestant you desire, or BUTTON THAT LIP.[/quote]

This coming from someone who thought the Fathers taught Sola Scriptua whilst affirming the authority of the Church. Cute.

[quote] Talk about the sin of presumption! You are the very essence of it! All talk and no action. [/quote]

lol. That isn't what the sin of presumption is. The sin of presumption means to look at another human being and say, "he or she is not a Christian" "He or she is going to heaven/hell" It is also called "The unpardonable sin" in situations where the sinner does not ask for forgiveness because A: He or she doesn't think they needs it or B: He or she doesn't think that they are deserving of it. See now? Isn't learning fun?

I provide evidence every time I engage you. You just choose not to read it, consider another's point of view (yeah, I said it), etc. I find t amusing you want me to find Protestants that support my idea. I am sure there are a few. After all, John Calvin and Martin Luther still had many Catholic beliefs, including the Immaculate Conception (both were rather devoted to Mary). I can provide quotes and links if you like.

[quote]If we assume Selah says way more useless things than me... say... twice as much, that gives you around the same amount of money because of differing post counts[/quote]

YAWN. Boring.


May the peace of Christ go with you,

Selah +

Edited October 7, 2009 by Selah

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Winchester' date='07 October 2009 - 01:30 PM' timestamp='1254940222' post='1980068']
That would be lots of labor, shoving rat meat into the skin. I would bank on denuding the bone and serving it in a soup or as taco meat.
[/quote]
Do they have ta[i][/i]cos in The Bahamas?

[Stormstopper]

[quote name='Archaeology cat' date='07 October 2009 - 01:08 PM' timestamp='1254938906' post='1980037']
I wish I could remember which interview it was, but the priest who confirmed me was telling me about an interview with Mother Teresa. The interviewer kept asking her what she promised to all the girls coming to live in the convent and work in Calcutta, and she kept responding "I give them Jesus". I think Bl Teresa of Calcutta for the most part embodied the quote from St Francis of Assisi: "Preach the Gospel at all times; use words when necessary". [url="http://www.servelec.net/mothertheresa.htm"]Here[/url]'s another interview with her, where she discusses that she shares the Gospel by living it out and by loving the people.



And Storm, my prayers are with you and your father.
[/quote]

Dear A-cat,

I read the interview, but the student of Scripture is going to have a hard time excusing her beliefs. For example, she says we "preach the gospel by our works of love." The gospel, is by defintion, what Jesus has accomplished FOR us in our redemption. As the apostles said, "we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord" (2 Cor 4:5). No one is going to deny that good deeds are a fruit of salvation, but a demonstartion of good deeds does not amount to that person having arrived at the truth. Jerry Lewis has been breaking his back for over 40 years trying to find a cure for MS, but he is a Christ-rejecting Jew and is unsaved no matter how much money he raises.

As was previously mentioned, she encourages her devotees to find "god" in whatever religion they find themselves, and that "what god is to you, you must accept". She then says that as they become a "better Hindu, a better Muslim, a better Buddhist" (another quote I read said, "a better whatever they are") they then end up "becoming closer to god". I'm sorry to say that this is all a lot of pious sounding terminology that does not amount to preaching the gospel at ALL. Furthermore, to say that "I love all religions" is very hard to swallow. I believe Jesus has not given us the command to "love all religions"---especially those that ipso facto, reject Him out of hand. It simply doesn't make sense coming from the one who said, "I AM THE WAY"---and consequently, there is no other "way". Moreover, her belief that atheistic communists are all "children of God" is only true to the extent that they have Him as their Creator, but NO further. Christ told those who didn't believe on Him that, "you are of your father the devil"---and so must we say likewise (John 8:44).

[Winchester]

Anybody on here argue that MT was infallible?

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Winchester' date='07 October 2009 - 02:10 PM' timestamp='1254942645' post='1980099']
Anybody on here argue that MT was infallible?
[/quote]
Not that I recall.

By the way, I think that the "better... whatever" quote is taken out of context. I would need to see the original source.

[Stormstopper]

[quote name='Selah' date='07 October 2009 - 01:32 PM' timestamp='1254940359' post='1980069']
Ah! My Pride! [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/sad.gif[/img]



Why would I provide a Reformer? Am I a Protestant? I'm guessing you haven't read the book of James? The part where it says "A man is justified by works and not by faith alone." "Faith without works is dead." And so forth. But hey, I understand. Martin Luther hated the book of James too. Almost removed it. You know, you can't be Sola Fide and agree with what St. James wrote.



Ever looked in a mirror?



This coming from someone who thought the Fathers taught Sola Scriptua whilst affirming the authority of the Church. Cute. [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif[/img]



lol. That isn't what the sin of presumption is. [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/P.gif[/img] The sin of presumption means to look at another human being and say, "he or she is not a Christian" "He or she is going to heaven/hell" It is also called "The unpardonable sin" in situations where the sinner does not ask for forgiveness because A: He or she doesn't think they needs it or B: He or she doesn't think that they are deserving of it. See now? Isn't learning fun? [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/happy.gif[/img]

I provide evidence every time I engage you. You just choose not to read it
[/quote]

Selah,

As usual you have taken me out of context. All I said was that you were engaging in the sin of presumption, and I was not defining it by your church's defintion. That is something you unwarrantly read into my words as if I was giving the official meaning as set down in your texts. In any case my presumptious little petunia, I provided my own definition of presumption (which of course means YOU presuming you think you undestand the Protestant position on the book of James) and you have now proceeded to give me YOUR definition---which is fine, but it is not the definition as your church descibes it, so kindly stick that flapping tongue right back in your mouth.

This is how the Old Catholic Encyclopedia defines the sin of presumption: "It may be defined as the condition of a soul which, because of a badly regulated reliance on God's mercy and power, hopes for salvation without doing anything to deserve it, or for pardon of his sins without repenting of them."

And by the way, since you could not provide one statement from any church council for the first 1,000 years of Christianity that referred to the papal supremacy of the Roman church ("over the whole world" according to Vatican 1 which they bogusly reported to be "as it has always been") that means you are anachronistically reading into the text "authority of the Roman Catholic Church in particular" whenever you see an early father use the term! It is utterly disgraceful. Hence, you are presumptious in both your definitions of church protocol, and your vain attempts at revising history.

Edited October 7, 2009 by Stormstopper

[Winchester]

That't not the point, though. This thread wasn't about Mother Theresa. Because he's realized, yet again, that he can't even tread water, he's gone to whatever site has little gems to throw at Catholics and he's put it up here. He's not well-read, he's simply finding other people's stuff during his smoke breaks at whatever cube farm he works in. Remember how budge used to start thread after thread? This guy isn't even original enough to do that, he just comes in, blasts out some croutons he read somewhere else on the internet (or, maybe, in some half-pat22's tract) and then gets outraged that we don't collapse like it says we will.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Selah' date='07 October 2009 - 02:32 PM' timestamp='1254940359' post='1980069']
Ah! My Pride!
[/quote]

Aren't you glad you have Jesu- I mean, Storm here, to correct you of your sins?

[Winchester]

[quote name='Stormstopper' date='07 October 2009 - 03:31 PM' timestamp='1254943871' post='1980112']
This is how the Old Catholic Encyclopedia defines the sin of presumption: "It may be defined as the condition of a soul which, because of a badly regulated reliance on God's mercy and power, hopes for salvation without doing anything to deserve it, or for pardon of his sins without repenting of them."
[/quote]
See? Googled or has it favorited, looked it up.

[HisChildForever]

Okay, this is what Storm TRIED to say in Post #70. Not sure why he messed up the quote function:

[quote]
The Roman Catholic Church has made her theology open to everyone and therefore are open to inspection. If you want to believe that good works can cleanse your soul, dear child, you go right ahead. Don't say I didn't warn you when you are denied access. [/quote]

You are not inspecting Catholic theology, you are warping it and making it say what you WANT it to say. Plenty of Phatmass members have already provided examples of you removing text from a quote so that it sounds good to your ears.

There are two Bible verses that completely destroy your "faith without works" argument. Taken from the New American Bible:

Matthew 16:27, straight out of Jesus Christ's mouth: [b]"For the Son of Man will come with his angels in his Father's glory, and then he will repay everyone according to his conduct."[/b]

Matthew 25:24-36, again spoken by Jesus Christ: [b] Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.'[/b] When the faithful souls question Christ - "when did we see you naked" etc. - Christ will reply: [b]And the king will say to them in reply, 'Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.'[/b] (That is from Matthew 25:40) Christ will judge us on our WORKS.

[Selah]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='07 October 2009 - 04:31 PM' timestamp='1254943919' post='1980114']
Aren't you glad you have Jesu- I mean, Storm here, to correct you of your sins?
[/quote]

Where would I be without him?

Makes you wonder though. Who does Christ then judge us by our works, if works play no part?

Sola Fide doesn't hold water. Faith is nothing if there are no works to back it up. I can call myself a Christian all I want, but if I behave like a depraved nitwit am I really a Christian? My talk is nothing without the walk, and faith without works is useless. We are justified by both works and faith, as St. James said.

Faith and works go hand in hand. Without one, the other cannot survive.

How can we know if someone is a Christian, Storm? By the way they talk or the way they act? What is more important? I'd say both are.

1 John 2:4-5 'I am a Christian; I am on my way to heaven; I belong to Christ.' But [b]if he doesn't do what Christ tells him to, [i]he is a liar[/i].[/b] But those who do what Christ tells them to will learn to love God more and more. This is the way to know whether or not you are a Christian.[b] Anyone who says he is a Christian should live as Christ did[/b]."

No one can faith to heaven, but no one can work to heaven as well. faith and works are neccesary together.

Remember...anyone can say the "sinner's prayer". Christianity is not a magic formula where you tap your heels together 3 times and say "there's no place like home" and boom! You're a Christian. It's a daily thing of dying to yourself. Salvation is a process.

Even the demons believe-and tramble.

Edited October 7, 2009 by Selah

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Selah' date='07 October 2009 - 02:46 PM' timestamp='1254944768' post='1980120']
Where would I be without him?

Makes you wonder though. Who does Christ then judge us by our works, if works play no part?
[/quote]
Skin colour.

[Winchester]

With a "u", because it's cooler that way.