Imputation Of Righteousness

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Stormstopper' date='07 October 2009 - 01:16 AM' timestamp='1254896160' post='1979732']
You will be receiving no apology from me Nihl....
I knew EXACTLY what she said and didn't "conveniently" leave it out as if I was unaware or trying to hide it. One of the main points in my debate on justification elsewhere on the forum, is that the RENOVATION or PURIFICATION of the soul is antagonistic to our justification, and is not the GROUND of our entry into heaven as M.T. so foolishly believed as words could not be more clear: "IF I DON'T GO TO HEAVEN FOR ANYTHING ELSE, I WILL BE GOING TO HEAVEN FOR ALL THE TRAVELLING...". Your credibility is in the dumps because you are sorry she ever made the statement and are doing everything you can to make it mean something else, but it will never work.
[/quote]
That's not what she said. Even your original quote did not say that. I've pointed that out... what, three times now? This is probably the fourth.

If you're just going to ignore what I'm saying and pretend that I said something different then fine, but why not just go all the way and rewrite my entire quote yourself so that it's easier to attack.

IF YOU'RE GOING TO MISREPRESENT CATHOLICS AND CATHOLIC DOCTRINE AT LEAST HAVE THE DECENCY TO USE HONEST QUOTATIONS. MY CREDIBILITY REMAINS WHILE YOURS CREEPS THROUGH EVER LARGER NEGATIVE NUMBERS AND I'M SURE EVENTUALLY YOU'LL GET INTO SOME TRIPPY SURREAL AND IMAGINARY NUMBER SETS THAT I'M NEVER GOING TO UNDERSTAND BECAUSE I DON'T PARTICULARLY CARE FOR THEORETICAL MATHEMATICS.

Mother Teresa, pray for us.

[Selah]

[quote]Mother Teresa, pray for us[/quote]

ZOMG U PAYGHAN LYK DERE IZ ONY ONE MEDIAOTOAR BETEWWEN GAWD AN MAUN!!!!!111oneoneeleven

[Stormstopper]

[quote name='zabbazooey' date='07 October 2009 - 01:26 AM' timestamp='1254896816' post='1979733']
[img]http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1170/1390961334_b1b1a969ca.jpg[/img]

On a serious note, if you even took a few moments to look in depth into Mother Teresa's life, you would realize how erroneous your statement is. She was an incredibly holy, humble person. The Church doesn't just beatify anyone.

You truly are taking it out of context and you KNOW (sry caps lock) it and you've been caught. Therefore, you are hanging on to this one isolated quote for dear life and are being stubborn.
[/quote]


And also on a serious note, if you wanted to demonstrate any integrity, why can't you post a quote from M.T. which shows she was trusting in the cross-work of Christ instead of her noteriety on planet Earth as the gateway to heaven? I don't claim to be an expert on everything she said and did, but you people just go for the jugular vein if any one of your "saints" is taken to task. She said she was "sacrificing" herself. Yeah, and I'm "sacrificing" myself driving an hour every night to visit my dying father at a nursing home. We were created "UNTO good works" (Eph 2:10), not that we are going to be saved BY them. No, it is not me that has been "caught" as you say, but it is in fact you that will be "caught" on that final day when Jesus discovers you have been trusting in your "grace-produced" good works for salvation! That is what Roman Catholicism means when they say that we are saved by grace. When one examines their theology, the truth shines out: they think they will be saved by their "grace-produced good works".....and that, Zabba, is "another gospel" per 2 Cor 11:4.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Stormstopper' date='07 October 2009 - 10:27 AM' timestamp='1254929248' post='1979850']
And also on a serious note, if you wanted to demonstrate any integrity, why can't you post a quote from M.T. which shows she was trusting in the cross-work of Christ instead of her noteriety on planet Earth as the gateway to heaven? I don't claim to be an expert on everything she said and did, but you people just go for the jugular vein if any one of your "saints" is taken to task. She said she was "sacrificing" herself. Yeah, and I'm "sacrificing" myself driving an hour every night to visit my dying father at a nursing home. We were created "UNTO good works" (Eph 2:10), not that we are going to be saved BY them. No, it is not me that has been "caught" as you say, but it is in fact you that will be "caught" on that final day when Jesus discovers you have been trusting in your "grace-produced" good works for salvation! That is what Roman Catholicism means when they say that we are saved by grace. When one examines their theology, the truth shines out: they think they will be saved by their "grace-produced good works".....and that, Zabba, is "another gospel" per 2 Cor 11:4.
[/quote]
Oh, that's what you're after?
Soon as I get home today I'll post some letters of correspondence between her and her bishop. That's not a problem at all.
Patience, and it will be done.

I can probably find one example per page.

[Stormstopper]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='07 October 2009 - 12:17 AM' timestamp='1254892644' post='1979711']
Always remember, you're not alone. Plenty of people have dyslexia and do just fine after learning certain techniques.



You are not making appraisals, you are blatantly judging people - sometimes having the audacity to question someone's salvation.
[/quote]

Dear Forever,

There is NO sin questioning someone's salvation IF there is evidence to support it. Your statement, ipso facto, assumes that everyone who names the name of Jesus is point-blanked SAVED, end of story. As we have already mentioned, the Lord has said that there will be MANY who will come to him in that day (professing Christians that is) and plead their goodness before Him, but he will refuse them entry. I am making the case that Catholics are falling hook, line and sinker into this category, and they need to examine themselves to see whether this is really where their trust lies. How many hundreds of times I have heard a Catholic say (including my own family and including my own dying father) that "hopefully my good deeds will outweigh my bad ones!" or, to quote dear old Dad, "if there is even one chance in a thousand that the incantation that priest said over me (the last rites) will get me into heaven, then its worth the risk." Sheesh, the madness never ends.

Edited October 7, 2009 by Stormstopper

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='Stormstopper' date='07 October 2009 - 11:27 AM' timestamp='1254929248' post='1979850']
And also on a serious note, if you wanted to demonstrate any integrity, why can't you post a quote from M.T. which shows she was trusting in the cross-work of Christ instead of her noteriety on planet Earth as the gateway to heaven? I don't claim to be an expert on everything she said and did, but you people just go for the jugular vein if any one of your "saints" is taken to task. She said she was "sacrificing" herself. Yeah, and I'm "sacrificing" myself driving an hour every night to visit my dying father at a nursing home. We were created "UNTO good works" (Eph 2:10), not that we are going to be saved BY them. No, it is not me that has been "caught" as you say, but it is in fact you that will be "caught" on that final day when Jesus discovers you have been trusting in your "grace-produced" good works for salvation! That is what Roman Catholicism means when they say that we are saved by grace. When one examines their theology, the truth shines out: they think they will be saved by their "grace-produced good works".....and that, Zabba, is "another gospel" per 2 Cor 11:4.
[/quote]
awww...your father's dying? I'll ask Mother Theresa to pray for him. And you. I know how that feels. God bless!

[Stormstopper]

[quote name='zabbazooey' date='07 October 2009 - 02:15 AM' timestamp='1254899709' post='1979740']
And if you're going to present an entire argument on Mother Teresa's Christian character by taking a snippet of an [b]entire speech[/b] she gave, at least post the entire speech so the context can be presented correctly:

SOURCE: [url="http://www.epm.org/artman2/publish/prolife_standing_for_life/Mother_Teresa_s_Speech.shtml"]http://www.epm.org/a..._s_Speech.shtml[/url]

Please read this, Stormstopper. Thank you and God bless.
[/quote]

Zabba Z,

I gave you the courtesy of reading the article and the quote in question was in the next to the last paragraph.
Welll........so what? My objection stands firm. She was a very nice person who ended her speech with what we have quoted. Look Z, if you are so bent on accusing me of taking it out of context, then (are you listening?) THEN, write in your own words and translate this sentence differently so that we can all understand what she REALLY meant.

But we both know you won't do it because the words are unambiguous, and she was not a comedian like Letterman where everything is a joke, so she meant what she said and said what she meant!

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Stormstopper' date='07 October 2009 - 11:37 AM' timestamp='1254929844' post='1979857']
There is NO sin questioning someone's salvation IF there is evidence to support it. [/quote]

You have no right, because an individual's salvation is between them and God. And you know what, any "evidence" you come up with is not full "evidence" because you have no clue what that individual thinks or feels in their heart.

[quote] Your statement, ipso facto, assumes that everyone who names the name of Jesus is point-blanked SAVED, end of story. [/quote]

Wow, you got THAT out of "You are not making appraisals, you are blatantly judging people - sometimes having the audacity to question someone's salvation." That statement assumes nothing. It is stating fact - your irrational judgment of the Catholics on this forum.

[quote] As we have already mentioned, the Lord has said that there will be MANY who will come to him in that day (professing Christians that is) and plead their goodness before Him, but he will refuse them entry. I am making the case that Catholics are falling hook, line and sinker into this category, and they need to examine themselves to see whether this is really where their trust lies. [/quote]

Are you Jesus Christ? No. So stop making judgments about Catholics.

[quote] How many hundreds of times I have heard a Catholic say (including my own family and including my own dying father) that "hopefully my good deeds will outweigh my bad ones!" or, to quote dear old Dad, "if there is even one chance in a thousand that the incantation that priest said over me (the last rites) will get me into heaven, then its worth the risk." Sheesh, the madness never ends.
[/quote]

Your father is dying and this is the compassion you show him?

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Stormstopper' date='07 October 2009 - 10:57 AM' timestamp='1254931046' post='1979864']
Zabba Z,

I gave you the courtesy of reading the article and the quote in question was in the next to the last paragraph.
Welll........so what? My objection stands firm. She was a very nice person who ended her speech with what we have quoted. Look Z, if you are so bent on accusing me of taking it out of context, then (are you listening?) THEN, write in your own words and translate this sentence differently so that we can all understand what she REALLY meant.

But we both know you won't do it because the words are unambiguous, and she was not a comedian like Letterman where everything is a joke, so she meant what she said and said what she meant!
[/quote]
Do you still want numerous examples taken from her private correspondence with her superiors? I'm more than happy to provide that.
Like it or not, the specific quote you have a problem with can quite easily be interpreted in a correct way.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Stormstopper' date='06 October 2009 - 06:24 PM' timestamp='1254867895' post='1979465']
As for me, I am convinced that to even mention, for a nanosecond, that because "I've travelled so much and have now become famous" makes me ready for heaven, is something that would never come out of the mouth of a true Christian.
[/quote]
Well, luckily, pleonastic mules don't have a say in the matter, now do they?

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='07 October 2009 - 12:00 PM' timestamp='1254931238' post='1979867']
Do you still want numerous examples taken from her private correspondence with her superiors? I'm more than happy to provide that.
Like it or not, the specific quote you have a problem with can quite easily be interpreted in a correct way.
[/quote]

He's never going to go along with something that'll make him look like a fool.

So just post them.

[Winchester]

In fairness, it's obvious 95+ hasn't the least bit of humor, so if MT made a joke, he wouldn't get it.

Luckily, we are not saved by humor, though someone on this board seems to believe we're saved by knowledge.

[Selah]

You know, for someone who calls himself "stormstopper" you sure do start a lot of storms

[Stormstopper]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='07 October 2009 - 09:17 AM' timestamp='1254925020' post='1979820']
That's not what she said. Even your original quote did not say that. I've pointed that out... what, three times now? This is probably the fourth.

If you're just going to ignore what I'm saying and pretend that I said something different then fine, but why not just go all the way and rewrite my entire quote yourself so that it's easier to attack.

IF YOU'RE GOING TO MISREPRESENT CATHOLICS AND CATHOLIC DOCTRINE AT LEAST HAVE THE DECENCY TO USE HONEST QUOTATIONS. MY CREDIBILITY REMAINS WHILE YOURS CREEPS THROUGH EVER LARGER NEGATIVE NUMBERS AND I'M SURE EVENTUALLY YOU'LL GET INTO SOME TRIPPY SURREAL AND IMAGINARY NUMBER SETS THAT I'M NEVER GOING TO UNDERSTAND BECAUSE I DON'T PARTICULARLY CARE FOR THEORETICAL MATHEMATICS.

Mother Teresa, pray for us. [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/D.gif[/img]
[/quote]


Mr. Nihl Ob,

You said that,

She regarded it as purgation, which I explicitly stated above. Quote me if you want to make sure it's proven"


Let's stick with what the word of God says about "purging". In Hebrews 1:3 we read He has by Himself, "PURGED" our sins. "Word Meanings in the N.T." says that to purge means to "make clean". So by purging our sins, Christ has made us clean. This was precisely the argument I had with Oropro who falsely assumed that being made clean was one thing, and having our sins forgiven was another. Therefore, to be made clean is having our sins forgiven and PURGED. There is NOTHING in Holy Writ where we are instructed to "PURGE" ourselves in the sense of our good deeds making us clean! But the cleansing power of good works is exactly what your church teaches and it is entirely UNBIBLICAL and opposed to the gospel at every point. We read at Vatican 2---(oh, and let me make sure I don't take it out of context lest I offend anyone!)----"From the most ancient of times in the church, good works were also offered to God for the salvation of sinners....indeed, [by] the prayers and good works of holy people...the penitent was WASHED, CLEANSED AND REDEEMED.... Following in Christ's steps, those who believe in him have always...carried their crosses to make EXPIATION for their sins and the sins of others. They were convinced that they could [by such good works and sacrifices] help their brothers to OBTAIN SALVATION from God..."

Not only is this entirely contradictory to everything we read in the N.T., but even the O.T. states that no man may redeem his brother or give to God a ransom for him (Ps 49:7). Let Mother T talk about "jesus" all she wants. IN CONTEXT, she was a faithful Catholic who believed in the pugational/cleansing power of good works, and THAT, Nihl Ob, is "another gospel" that will not save one person who adheres to it.

Edited October 7, 2009 by Stormstopper

[Winchester]

Well, if we didn't need to do works to participate in our Salvation, then we wouldn't have to accept Jesus. By the logic presented above, everyone is going to Heaven.

Sweet.