Imputation Of Righteousness

[Selah]

[quote]When correcting the Galatians, Paul said, "Have I therefore become your enemy because I tell you the truth?"[/quote]

Oh no. Don't you dare use that verse as an excuse for your arrogant behavior. Seriously. I hate it when people do that.

I think that, if you approached us with gentleness and respect, you [i]just might [/i]be a little more successful in converting us. Yes, Jesus called the Pharisees a "brood of vipers" but you are not Jesus. And St. Paul certainly did not speak as you yourself do. Ugh. Button it.

[Stormstopper]

[quote name='rkwright' date='06 October 2009 - 03:40 PM' timestamp='1254861609' post='1979393']
Sorry for the confusion, the "defeat it" was a semi-joke. Don't take it too seriously.
[/quote]


Thank you for the clarification.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Selah' date='06 October 2009 - 05:02 PM' timestamp='1254866576' post='1979450']

I think that, if you approached us with gentleness and respect, you [i]just might [/i]be a little more successful in converting us. Yes, Jesus called the Pharisees a "brood of vipers" but you are not Jesus. And St. Paul certainly did not speak as you yourself do. Ugh. Button it.
[/quote]
Well he wouldn't be any more successful, but at least he wouldn't be approaching the dubious record of the first Phatmasser to reach -100 rep points.

[Stormstopper]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='06 October 2009 - 05:00 PM' timestamp='1254866401' post='1979446']
Stormstopper, that is foolish and incorrect.
In fact, one of the biggest criticisms against her, from (I believe) Dawkins, is that she put too much emphasis on evangelization and not enough on medical care.
[/quote]


I don't know who Dawkins is, but anyway, you're entitled to your opinion.

As for me, I am convinced that to even mention, for a nanosecond, that because "I've travelled so much and have now become famous" makes me ready for heaven, is something that would never come out of the mouth of a true Christian.

Might I ask you....what denomination of people-- ("MANY" will come to me in that day)-- do you think Jesus was rejecting at the judgment seat per Matt 7:22, when they were arguing with Him about doing so many good deeds "in His name"---- but He nevertheless, refused them entry? Before you answer, I have before me now the #1 Catholic apologetics book on Amazon.com by Robert Sungenis ("Not By Faith Alone") with rave reviews in the preamble by all the major big-wigs. So certainly, this must be a good indication of what Roman Catholics believe. On p. 215, we read that, [our] works are the DETERMINING FACTOR IN OUR SALVATION."

Edited October 6, 2009 by Stormstopper

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Stormstopper' date='06 October 2009 - 06:24 PM' timestamp='1254867895' post='1979465']
I don't know who Dawkins is, but anyway, you're entitled to your opinion.

As for me, I am convinced that to even mention, for a nanosecond, that because "I've travelled so much and have now become famous" makes me ready for heaven, is something that would never come out of the mouth of a true Christian.

Might I ask you....what denomination of people-- ("MANY" will come to me in that day)-- do you think Jesus was rejecting at the judgment seat per Matt 7:22, when they were arguing with Him about doing so many good deeds "in His name"---- but He nevertheless, refused them entry? Before you answer, I have before me now the #1 Catholic apologetics book on Amazon.com by Robert Sungenis ("Not By Faith Alone") with rave reviews in the preamble by all the major big-wigs. So certainly, this must be a good indication of what Roman Catholics believe. On p. 215, we read that, [our] works are the DETERMINING FACTOR IN OUR SALVATION."
[/quote]
I have that book (although I can't locate it at the moment ... moving twice in the last year has been murder on my library). I found Sungenis did a very thorough analysis of the concept of works, explaining the difference between graced works and those attempted through human effort alone. I hope you do more with the book than look for "proof texts" to show up Catholicism. Better to argue against Sungenis' full ideas than to take comments out of context. As others have pointed out, that is dishonest scholarship, and aids no one in the search for truth.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Stormstopper' date='06 October 2009 - 06:24 PM' timestamp='1254867895' post='1979465']
As for me, I am convinced that to even mention, for a nanosecond, that because "I've travelled so much and have now become famous" makes me ready for heaven, is something that would [b]never come out of the mouth of a true Christian.[/b]
[/quote]
We were all wrong...
this guy IS God!




Funny...I always pictured Him as using less capitalization...




Then again, maybe that's why in the Bible, it always goes, "Thus said the LORD." I guess it fits after all.

[Selah]

[quote]
Might I ask you....what denomination of people-- ("MANY" will come to me in that day)-- do you think Jesus was rejecting at the judgment seat per Matt 7:22, when they were arguing with Him about doing so many good deeds "in His name"---- but He nevertheless, refused them entry?[/quote]

Golly you have such entitlement issues. As if it's any of your business?

Ugh!


[quote] our] works are the DETERMINING FACTOR IN OUR SALVATION." [/quote]

James 2:20

You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds [b]is useless?[/b]
James 2:24

You see then how that by works a man is justified, [b]and not by faith only.[/b]

James 2:14

What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? [b]can faith save him? [/b]

James 2:18

Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: [b]shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. [/b]

Faith and works go hand in hand. There is no "Sola Fide" and there is no "Sola Worke". You can't work your way to heaven, just as you can't faith your way to heaven. So yes, works are part of salvation, as is faith.

Edited October 7, 2009 by Selah

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Stormstopper' date='06 October 2009 - 06:24 PM' timestamp='1254867895' post='1979465']
that because "I've travelled so much and have now become famous" makes me ready for heaven, is something that would never come out of the mouth of a true Christian.
[/quote]

You do realize that you are CONSTANTLY judging people, which is something Jesus condemned, right?

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Stormstopper' date='06 October 2009 - 05:24 PM' timestamp='1254867895' post='1979465']
I don't know who Dawkins is, but anyway, you're entitled to your opinion.

As for me, I am convinced that to even mention, for a nanosecond, that because "I've travelled so much and have now become famous" makes me ready for heaven, is something that would never come out of the mouth of a true Christian.
[/quote]
Mother Teresa absolutely despised traveling and speaking in public. She did it because her bishops and spiritual directors told her to. It was absolutely clear that she'd rather be at one of her houses tending to the sick and dying.
I would say that yes, her traveling and speaking did much towards making her into a saint. She did not like the fame one bit.

Had her bishops and SDs left her alone, she never would have been in the public spotlight, never have accepted awards, and never have made public speeches. I am absolutely positive of that, and even you would be convinced if you bothered to do your research.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='07 October 2009 - 12:21 AM' timestamp='1254889287' post='1979667']
I am absolutely positive of that, and even you would be convinced if you bothered to do your research.
[/quote]
Don't be so sure. He's the type who doesn't let facts get in the way of his opinions.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' date='06 October 2009 - 11:34 PM' timestamp='1254890054' post='1979677']
Don't be so sure. He's the type who doesn't let facts get in the way of his opinions.
[/quote]

All my fire... gone. Just like that.

[Stormstopper]

[quote name='Terra Firma' date='06 October 2009 - 07:47 PM' timestamp='1254876441' post='1979534']
I have that book (although I can't locate it at the moment ... moving twice in the last year has been murder on my library). I found Sungenis did a very thorough analysis of the concept of works, explaining the difference between graced works and those attempted through human effort alone. I hope you do more with the book than look for "proof texts" to show up Catholicism. Better to argue against Sungenis' full ideas than to take comments out of context. As others have pointed out, that is dishonest scholarship, and aids no one in the search for truth. [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif[/img]
[/quote]

Terra F....

I can only just roll my eyes, and perhaps you will understand that I am rightly indignant at your accusation that I have taken something out of context. When making such an accusation, PROVIDE THE PROOF or kindly button your lip. If I were to tell others I heard from a reliable source that you were sniffing glue in a dark alley, but I refused to reveal my sources, I would not be such a credible witness. Get my drift? Now as for the Sungenis book, I most certainly DID NOT take anything out of context because the entire thesis of that book, as it's title states, is "NOT BY FAITH ALONE". What pray tell, do you think he wishes to ADD to faith that will open the gates of heaven? The answer to that question was furnished in my quote, and is the very heart of what that book is all about. As a matter of fact Terra, I have read it TWICE, and highlighted passages all over the place (how do you think I knew the page number? I skimmed for my yellow highlights)---but also, the book has been so well worn as a result of further reference, that the binding is practically falling apart. I examined it quite carefully to make sure I understood my opponent's point of view, and should you decide to open a thread to vindicate this man's filthy thesis, as that old song goes, "I'll be there".

For you to discredit me with "dishonest scholarship" by the use of ONE quote (without explanation) is quite inexcusable, I must say. But I will say this in closing; should you decide we never pick up on this topic again, I'll give you something to think about. One of the author's main conclusions is---are you ready for this?

"CHRIST DOES NOT TAKE UPON HIMSELF THE GUILT AND PUNISHMENT OF THE INDIVIDUAL."

Would you believe I know the page number by heart? I do. It's on p. 413....as it was somewhat like a mule (Mr. Sungenis) backing up and kicking me in the face and branding the page number on my forehead. That's how effected I was by his conclusion. I despise that book wholeheartedly. Not that every single sentence was a falsehood, but reaching such a disgusting conclusion about the grand and glorious work of the Lord Jesus Christ is intolerable. One cannot help BUT become emotional about it. Truly, Satan does not come to us dressed in a pitch fork and a red cape. He comes, "transformed as an angel of light, therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as ministers of righteousness" (2 Cor 11:15).

How you, and all the others raving about the book in the preface, ever got past that horrific statement without ever blinking an eyelash, I JUST WILL NEVER KNOW. The whole concept is an outright denial of what Jesus came to accomplish and any true Christian reading that should be rightly outraged. I hope my emotionalism will be a catalyst for some serious soul searching on your part. Because I tell you this---- If Jesus Christ did NOT take upon Himself YOUR guilt AND punishment, Terra.....you are lost.

[Stormstopper]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='06 October 2009 - 11:21 PM' timestamp='1254889287' post='1979667']
Mother Teresa absolutely despised traveling and speaking in public. She did it because her bishops and spiritual directors told her to. It was absolutely clear that she'd rather be at one of her houses tending to the sick and dying.
I would say that yes, her traveling and speaking did much towards making her into a saint. She did not like the fame one bit.

Had her bishops and SDs left her alone, she never would have been in the public spotlight, never have accepted awards, and never have made public speeches. I am absolutely positive of that, and even you would be convinced if you bothered to do your research.
[/quote]

Sorry Nihil....what you're saying doesn't make sense. Even if she did despise the publicity, why would she make the statement that the publicity made her ready for heaven?????? She doesn't appear to have been the type to be joking around. You're not dealing with what she SAID, but how she might have felt in private.

[Vincent Vega]

Called it.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Stormstopper' date='06 October 2009 - 11:54 PM' timestamp='1254891277' post='1979694']
Sorry Nihil....what you're saying doesn't make sense. Even if she did despise the publicity, why would she make the statement that the publicity made her ready for heaven?????? She doesn't appear to have been the type to be joking around. You're not dealing with what she SAID, but how she might have felt in private.
[/quote]
You're twisting her words, for one thing, but I would guess that she viewed being forced into public speaking and traveling as a sort of purgation on earth... among the unimaginable purgation she was already experiencing in the form of her spiritual torment.