OraProMe Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='04 October 2009 - 09:19 PM' timestamp='1254709172' post='1977827'] So how do you interpret Exsurge Domine for today's culture? [/quote] I don't. I think it was wrong albeit understandable back then. Now I think it's just wrong and fanatical for today. Someone who advocates the burning of heretics in 2009 goes into the same category as the Taliban for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 Hus was executed by the state. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted October 5, 2009 Author Share Posted October 5, 2009 [quote name='OraProMe' date='04 October 2009 - 09:29 PM' timestamp='1254709770' post='1977836'] Actually "it leaves untouched traditional Catholic doctrine on the....etc." was a footnote added to appease the conservative bishops.[/quote] It doesn't matter why it was added. It is part of the promulgated text and is just as authoritative as the rest of DH. [quote name='OraProMe' date='04 October 2009 - 09:29 PM' timestamp='1254709770' post='1977836'] Can you please explain how those two statements are compatible with one another?[/b] [/quote] "This Vatican Council declares that the human person has a right to religious freedom. This freedom means that all men are to be immune from coercion on the part of individuals or of social groups and of any human power, in such wise that no one is to be forced to act in a manner contrary to his own beliefs, whether privately or publicly, whether alone or in association with others, [b]within due limits.[/b]" ([i]DH[/i], 2) The state can limit freedoms in order to protect the state from ruin. In fact, this is what Leo XIII says it should do: “We must now consider briefly liberty of speech, and liberty of the press. It is hardly necessary to say that there can be no such right as this, if it be not used in moderation, and if it pass beyond the bounds and end of all true liberty. For right is a moral power which - as We have before said and must again and again repeat - it is absurd to suppose that nature has accorded indifferently to truth and falsehood, to justice and injustice. Men have a right freely and prudently to propagate throughout the State what things soever are true and honorable, so that as many as possible may possess them; but lying opinions, than which no mental plague is greater, and vices which corrupt the heart and moral life should be diligently repressed by public authority, lest they insidiously work the ruin of the State." (Pope Leo XIII, Libertas praestantissimum, 23) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted October 5, 2009 Author Share Posted October 5, 2009 (edited) EDIT Edited October 5, 2009 by Resurrexi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OraProMe Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 That is not the statement I provided. I'm asking why Pius IX condemns the idea that religious liberty should be enshrined in the law yet Vatican II says that it must become a civil right. Please go back and read the quotes I provided instead of providing another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted October 5, 2009 Author Share Posted October 5, 2009 In all honesty, there are many times that the Bible seems to contradict itself. In those cases, we just have to play a little hermeneutical gymnastics. The same is true for when magisterial pronouncements seem to contradict each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 [quote name='Kitty' date='04 October 2009 - 07:24 PM' timestamp='1254698655' post='1977683'] The church can't burn people now because murder is against the law. Also, the church isn't in charge of the country anymore, thank goodness. [/quote] The Church didn't burn anyone and was not in charge of the country at the time. Executions still take place at the behest of nations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OraProMe Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' date='04 October 2009 - 09:39 PM' timestamp='1254710368' post='1977847'] In all honesty, there are many times that the Bible seems to contradict itself. In those cases, we just have to play a little hermeneutical gymnastics. The same is true for when magisterial pronouncements seem to contradict each other. [/quote] That didn't answer my question and is a cheap way out. Why is the idea of religious liberty being a constitutional right condemned by Pius IX yet advocated by Vatican II? I've provided you with the two quotes so let's talk about those. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 [quote name='OraProMe' date='04 October 2009 - 10:16 PM' timestamp='1254708980' post='1977819'] Executing someone because of their beliefs is always wrong and "Exsurge Domine" was clearly influenced by social and cultural factors: 1)the idea of human rights was unheard of[/quote] Excrement. People had right to property, right to life, the state's obligation to the people was recognized. All this was abused then as it is now, but to pretend human rights are a new invention (women have recovered the ones they lost during the Rennaiscance) is indefensible. Read REgine Pernoud--in the original French if you can (I can't). [quote] 2)there was little value placed on human life[/quote] Actually, a great deal of value was placed on human life. Hence the terrible punishments meted out to those who affected it. I am aware of the irony. [quote] 3)It was generally a monoethnic culture with the vast majority of people being of the same religion. Social and cultural circumstances are different today which is why religious freedom is now regarded as a right that should be enshrined in the laws of any properly constituted state (DH, VII) rather than "insane" and perverse (Quanta Cura, Pius IX). [/quote] That's true. In fact, mobs were wont to drag accused heretics and execute them unless the religious or civil authorities protected them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted October 5, 2009 Author Share Posted October 5, 2009 [quote name='OraProMe' date='04 October 2009 - 09:42 PM' timestamp='1254710532' post='1977849'] That didn't answer my question and is a cheap way out. Why is the idea of religious liberty being a constitutional right condemned by Pius IX yet advocated by Vatican II? I've provided you with the two quotes so let's talk about those. [/quote] "They do not hesitate to put forward the view which is not only opposed to the Catholic Church, but very pernicious for the salvation of souls — an opinion which Gregory XVI, Our Predecessor, called absurd. This is the view that liberty of conscience and worship is the strict right of every man, a right which should be proclaimed and affirmed by law in every properly constituted state." Yes, it is indeed absurd that completely unrestricted liberty of worship should exist. DH even agrees with this, saying that "no one is to be forced to act in a manner contrary to his own beliefs, whether privately or publicly, whether alone or in association with others, [b]within due limits[/b]." If there were a sect that taught that on his 20th birthday, every young man must kill his father, do you not think that it would be wise for that sect to be stamped out by civil authorities? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Resurrexi' date='04 October 2009 - 10:39 PM' timestamp='1254710368' post='1977847'] hermeneutical gymnastics. [quote] what is this ? Edited October 5, 2009 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted October 5, 2009 Author Share Posted October 5, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Delivery Boy' date='04 October 2009 - 09:46 PM' timestamp='1254710813' post='1977853'] hermeneutical gymnastics. what is this ? [/quote] [img]http://www.wga.hu/art/c/caravagg/07/44jerome.jpg[/img] + [img]http://www.i-olympic.com/Image/200871521203851177801.jpg[/img] Edited October 5, 2009 by Resurrexi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 That's the gymnastics they do in the Russian Space Program. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OraProMe Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' date='04 October 2009 - 09:46 PM' timestamp='1254710780' post='1977851'] "They do not hesitate to put forward the view which is not only opposed to the Catholic Church, but very pernicious for the salvation of souls — an opinion which Gregory XVI, Our Predecessor, called absurd. This is the view that liberty of conscience and worship is the strict right of every man, a right which should be proclaimed and affirmed by law in every properly constituted state." Yes, it is indeed absurd that completely unrestricted liberty of worship should exist. DH even agrees with this, saying that "no one is to be forced to act in a manner contrary to his own beliefs, whether privately or publicly, whether alone or in association with others, [b]within due limits[/b]." If there were a sect that taught that on his 20th birthday, every young man must kill his father, do you not think that it would be wise for that sect to be stamped out by civil authorities? [/quote] 1. That is not DH agreeing the Pius IX. Can you please address my original quote from Vatican II which states that Religious Liberty is a civil right. Stop providing your own. 2. The sect could teach that as much as they want aslong as they don't actually do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/lol_roll.gif[/img] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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