Jan Hus

[Stormstopper]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='05 October 2009 - 07:16 PM' timestamp='1254788161' post='1978619']
He said a bit more than "eat me."

John 6:48-67

[sup]48[/sup][b]I am the bread of life.[/b]

[sup]49[/sup]Your forefathers ate the manna in the desert, yet they died. [sup]

50[/sup]But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which a man may eat and not die.

[sup]51[/sup]Iam the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. [b]This bread is my flesh[/b], which I will give for the life of the world." [sup]

52[/sup]T[b]hen the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?" [/b]

[sup]53[/sup][b]Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. [/b]

[sup]54[/sup]Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

[sup]55[/sup][b]For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. [/b]

[sup]56[/sup]Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him.

[sup]57[/sup]Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. [sup]
[/sup]
[sup]58[/sup]This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever." [sup]

5[/sup][sup]9[/sup]He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.

[sup]60[/sup][b]On hearing it, many of his disciples said, "This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?"

[/b][sup]61[/sup][b]Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, "Does this scandalize you? [/b]

[sup]62[/sup]What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before!

[sup]63[/sup]The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit[sup][[url="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%206#fen-NIV-26310e"]e[/url]][/sup] and they are life.

[sup]64[/sup]Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.

[sup]65[/sup]He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."

[sup]66[/sup][b]From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.[/b]

[sup]67[/sup]"You do not want to leave too, do you?" Jesus asked the Twelve.


[url="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%206"]http://www.biblegate...search=john%206[/url]



Note that when the Jews were shocked and questioned what he said, Jesus did not say, "Whoah, you're misreading me, guys, don't jump the gun!" And when his own disciples said, "This is a hard saying: how can anyone accept it?" and walked away, he didn't call after them, "Hey, fellows, don't go! It was only a [i]metaphor.[/i] What I meant by 'my flesh' was really 'the substance of what I'm saying,' you dig?" No. He said, "Does this scandalize you?" Then he let them go. He and they both knew what he meant, and he let them go without giving the slightest hint that there was any misunderstanding.

~Sternhauser
[/quote]

Stern,

If you go to the thread in the debate forum, "Transubstantiation: Unsubstantiated", you will find my essay on that topic which deals with every one of your objections. As for your last paragraph, the same old argument has been answered ad nauseum down through the centuries to Catholics who refuse to read their Bibles but simply believe what comes out of a priests mouth without checking what GOD has to say on the matter. So I'll paste it again:

_________________________________________________________________________________

[font="Arial"][size="2"] I am flabbergasted beyond measure that Catholics continue forever and forever asking the same old same old: WHY DIDN'T JESUS CALL THEM BACK? ANSWER: He was under no obligation to! God said He would purposely, willfully and sovereignly BLIND the eyes of those whom He would. When Jesus said He could build the temple in only 3 days---and his audience scoffed at Him, did the Lord say, HEY WAIT! THAT'S NOT WHAT I MEANT! No, He did not. I am proposing to you that is precisely the case in John 6.
As to your comment, that Jesus was speaking PLAINLY----um, why then in John 10:24 did they ask Him, "If thou be the Christ, TELL US PLAINLY?" Obviously, Jesus DID NOT always speak plainly "because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, [i]but to them it is not given." [/i](Matt 13:11).

[/size][/font][font="Arial"][size="2"]It was the intentional will of God to withhold the mysteries of the kingdom to many for His own good reasons and John 6 is another pristine example {Isa 6:9, Matt 11:25, Mk 4:11-12, Luke 8:10, John 9:39-41, Rms 11:8}.

You asked, "Tell me then, why did the people leave Jesus when He repeated what He said?"


I would be delighted to tell you. Verse 65 reads, "And He was saying, 'Because of this I said unto you that no one is able to come to me except it is given to him by the Father".
Coming to Christ is not something that is the result of persuasive speaking, and only God has the ability to open our eyes of understanding, as He did to Peter, telling Him that flesh and blood had not revealed to Him the truth of Christ's identity, but the Father had. And obviously, Jesus was the greatest orator of all time, yet as we read in verse 66, many "went away from following Him and no longer walked with Him". The operative factor of the Father was missing. In context, these people went away, not because of Jesus' words about eating His flesh, but because He asserted that it is simply not possible for anyone to come to Him unless the Father enables him. What caused them to abandon ship was the proclamation of the absolute sovereingnty of God and the inability of man. The text specifically says, [u]"Because of this, many of His disciples went away".
[/u][/size][/font]
"BECAUSE OF THIS!"

[picchick]

I am sorry, I am still in shock by the gall that this guy has. Forget the topic thread...

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='06 October 2009 - 12:48 AM' timestamp='1254804486' post='1978925']
I'm a high school student who got a 99th percentile on the critical reading section of the PSAT, and I sometimes have trouble understanding what the [i]Catechism of the Catholic Church[/i] is saying.
[/quote]
Rexi....you just don't understand! You not as enlightened as Stormstopper! Being as you are in the Catholic Church....*tsk tsk* on you.


[quote name='notardillacid' date='06 October 2009 - 12:49 AM' timestamp='1254804598' post='1978926']
I guess I always thought venial sins could be remitted through receiving the Eucharist, but one had to go to confession to have mortal sins forgiven. [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif[/img]
[/quote]

Yes. That is what the Catechism teaches. Who wants me to quote it?

[picchick]

[quote name='Stormstopper' date='06 October 2009 - 12:51 AM' timestamp='1254804669' post='1978927']

"BECAUSE OF THIS!"


[/quote]

YELL LOUDER!!!!!! EMPHASIZE MORE!!! IT IS OBVIOUS THAT THE BIGGER THE CAPS THE MORE WE WILL GET THE MESSAGE!!!!

[ardillacid]

[quote name='picchick' date='06 October 2009 - 12:51 AM' timestamp='1254804713' post='1978929']
I am sorry, I am still in shock by the gall that this guy has. Forget the topic thread...


Rexi....you just don't understand! You not as enlightened as Stormstopper! Being as you are in the Catholic Church....*tsk tsk* on you.




Yes. That is what the Catechism teaches. Who wants me to quote it?
[/quote]
WOOHOO I'M NOT A HERETIC!

[Vincent Vega]

[size="7"]I CAN RITE BIGER THAN THE POP! MEANS THAT I'M BETER CATLOK![/size]

[Stormstopper]

[quote name='Selah' date='05 October 2009 - 08:13 PM' timestamp='1254791624' post='1978689']
Stormstopper doesn't like me [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/sadder.gif[/img]
[/quote]

Selah dearest, stop trying to read my mind. But thought you'd want to know that I agree with the person who thinks this thread is getting off topic, so I'm sure someone will shut it down soon for our saintly infractions to the rules. But I must say, it's not that I don't like YOU, but I DO dislike the misinformation you dish out so casually. Your previous post, erroneously stating that "the church never burnt anyone" is so outrageously false, all the martyrs in heaven who were in fact, BURNT under the tryannical rule of the Catholic Church would probably foam at the mouth at such a ludicrous statement if they could hear you. It was made as usual, to whitewash the guilt of those responsible and NO history book in the universe would agree with your flat out LIE. A losing battle if I ever heard of one. So get it straight: The Council of Constance TURNED HUS OVER TO THE MAGISTRATES TO BE BURNT AND IT DOESN'T MATTER ONE BIT IF THEY THEMSELVES DIDN'T HOLD THE MATCH! IN 1999 THE POPE APOLOGIZED FOR IT, and THAT, as they say, IS THAT.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='picchick' date='05 October 2009 - 10:51 PM' timestamp='1254804713' post='1978929']Yes. That is what the Catechism teaches. Who wants me to quote it?
[/quote]

nuh uh. you just don't understand, you're not a 7 year old from St. Patty's. oh, and you're Catholic, so double whammy.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Stormstopper' date='05 October 2009 - 11:04 PM' timestamp='1254805463' post='1978935']
Selah dearest
[/quote]

I suppose you think this works in your favor to establish your intellectual prowess over another, masquerading as sweetness. But it just makes you look like a jackarse This is America, just say what you really think, PM's rating system be "darned."

Edited October 6, 2009 by goldenchild17

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='OraProMe' date='05 October 2009 - 10:09 PM' timestamp='1254794952' post='1978786']
What are you talking about? I did respond to your (edited and manipulated) quote from the Catechism and your response was that you were going to lurk elsewhere.

You have to read the quote in the context of the whole body of Catholic doctrine. Catholics believe that the Mass is the re-enactment of Calvary where Jesus shed his blood and gave his body up for our redemption. That is in no way saying that receiving Communion forgives sins "via the mouth". If Holy Communion forgives sin, stormstopper, can you please explain why a requirment for the proper reception of the Eucharist is to be in a state of grace?

Technically, even if the Church taught Holy Communion forgave our particular sins (which the Church does not), it would have no practical effect because no Catholic should have any mortal sin on his soul when receiving the Eucharist in the first place.

DO YOU GET THAT? I LEARNT THAT WHEN I WAS A LIL' SEVEN YEAR OLD AT GOOD OLD ST. PATTY'S PARISH CHURCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111!11oneone!!11
[/quote]

Holy Communion does forgive sins.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='aalpha1989' date='06 October 2009 - 12:09 AM' timestamp='1254805762' post='1978941']
Holy Communion does forgive sins.
[/quote]

Yes, Holy Communion forgives venial sins.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Stormstopper' date='06 October 2009 - 12:04 AM' timestamp='1254805463' post='1978935']
So get it straight: The Council of Constance TURNED HUS OVER TO THE MAGISTRATES TO BE BURNT AND IT DOESN'T MATTER ONE BIT IF THEY THEMSELVES DIDN'T HOLD THE MATCH! IN 1999 THE POPE APOLOGIZED FOR IT, and THAT, as they say, IS THAT.
[/quote]

As I have stated in the past, the Pope did not apologize in his office as pastor and teacher of all Christians. His statement was not doctrinally authoritative nor is it part of the teachings of the Catholic Church.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Stormstopper' date='06 October 2009 - 01:04 AM' timestamp='1254805463' post='1978935']
Selah dearest, stop trying to read my mind. But thought you'd want to know that I agree with the person who thinks this thread is getting off topic, so I'm sure someone will shut it down soon for our saintly infractions to the rules. But I must say, it's not that I don't like YOU, but I DO dislike the misinformation you dish out so casually. Your previous post, erroneously stating that "the church never burnt anyone" is so outrageously false, all the martyrs in heaven who were in fact, BURNT under the tryannical rule of the Catholic Church would probably foam at the mouth at such a ludicrous statement if they could hear you. It was made as usual, to whitewash the guilt of those responsible and NO history book in the universe would agree with your flat out LIE. A losing battle if I ever heard of one. So get it straight: The Council of Constance TURNED HUS OVER TO THE MAGISTRATES TO BE BURNT AND IT DOESN'T MATTER ONE BIT IF THEY THEMSELVES DIDN'T HOLD THE MATCH! IN 1999 THE POPE APOLOGIZED FOR IT, and THAT, as they say, IS THAT.
[/quote]
Yes, because that was the penalty according to the civil law.

But many were saved, as well, who would have died had not the inquisitional courts tried them instead of the other options.

Would you consider a martyr one who believed that starving to death was holy? Or that sex under any circumstances was wrong?

I've already stated what you're incapable of stating, but in a truthful and non-outrageous manner. Your demonstrate a desire to demonize as opposed to a desire to expose truth. Your bizarre obsession with capitalization indicates an unbalanced personality. There are doctors out there who can help you deal with the rage that may be clouding your reason.

Which year are you talking about? Which inquisitional court? How many people do you think the inquisitions turned over to the civil authorities?

Yet again, the pope's apology is not infallible. Nor were the inquisitional courts or even their application.

But you're through with me, so you're not reading this.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Stormstopper' date='06 October 2009 - 12:51 AM' timestamp='1254804669' post='1978927']
Stern,

If you go to the thread in the debate forum, "Transubstantiation: Unsubstantiated", you will find my essay on that topic which deals with every one of your objections. As for your last paragraph, the same old argument has been answered ad nauseum down through the centuries to Catholics who refuse to read their Bibles but simply believe what comes out of a priests mouth without checking what GOD has to say on the matter. So I'll paste it again:
[/quote]
Because everyone but the Catholic Church can infallibly understand the Bible.

[OraProMe]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='06 October 2009 - 12:13 AM' timestamp='1254805997' post='1978944']
Yes, Holy Communion forgives venial sins.
[/quote]

Yes, that's true. This is a conversation that stormstopper carried over here from the "Gates of Hell" thread. We were talking about mortal sin and I usually made this distinction when I replied to him.

[OraProMe]

OraProMe said:
[quote]Technically, even if the Church taught Holy Communion forgave our particular sins (which the Church does not), it would have no practical effect because no Catholic should have any [b]mortal[/b] sin on his soul when receiving the Eucharist in the first place.
[/quote]