Hell Fire

[Theologian in Training]

[quote name='OraProMe' date='05 October 2009 - 08:49 AM' timestamp='1254743361' post='1978121']
One of the biggest problems I have with the Catholic idea of heaven and hell is the teaching that any soul stained with even one mortal sin goes to Hell. Theoretically I could lead a spiritual and decent life, go to confession a have all my sins forgiven, masturbate before I go to bed, die in my sleep and then go straight to Hell for that one sin.

That just seems a bit trivial to me.
[/quote]

Then, as you know, if you masturbate before going to bed, you really weren't (theoretically) living a spiritual and decent life, because in that confession you are making the act of contrition, that is, you intend to "sin no more." Yet, if you leave the confessional only to do that, then what type of life are you really living? Is that really a spiritual and decent life, or one that you believe to be so? And, trivial or not, if you break the law, say, rob a house, get caught, is there not consequences for those actions? Are you really going to say: "this law it trivial, I refuse to abide by it?"

[Theologian in Training]

[quote name='OraProMe' date='05 October 2009 - 10:17 AM' timestamp='1254748679' post='1978143']
That's a really moving, emotive paragraph but it doesn't really answer my question, Father.
[/quote]

Then you are not understanding what God has done for you and what you daily do for Him, or, rather, refuse to do for Him.

[OraProMe]

[quote name='Theologian in Training' date='05 October 2009 - 08:18 AM' timestamp='1254748697' post='1978144']
Then, as you know, if you masturbate before going to bed, you really weren't (theoretically) living a spiritual and decent life, because in that confession you are making the act of contrition, that is, you intend to "sin no more." Yet, if you leave the confessional only to do that, then what type of life are you really living? Is that really a spiritual and decent life, or one that you believe to be so? And, trivial or not, if you break the law, say, rob a house, get caught, is there not consequences for those actions? Are you really going to say: "this law it trivial, I refuse to abide by it?"
[/quote]

So I guess anyone that continues to sin after they make an act of contrition isn't leading a spiritual or decent life? That would include me, you, everyone on this forum and the Pope himself.

Sure, there is a consequence for breaking the law. But do the myriad of things that the Catholic Church considers a mortal sin deserve eternal torment in hell? Talk about the punishment being disproportionate to the crime and all this from a God who loves us unconditionally.

[Theologian in Training]

[quote name='OraProMe' date='05 October 2009 - 10:25 AM' timestamp='1254749139' post='1978149']
So I guess anyone that continues to sin after they make an act of contrition isn't leading a spiritual or decent life? That would include me, you, everyone on this forum and the Pope himself.

Sure, there is a consequence for breaking the law. But do the myriad of things that the Catholic Church considers a mortal sin deserve eternal torment in hell? Talk about the punishment being disproportionate to the crime and all this from a God who loves us unconditionally.
[/quote]

No, anyone who continue to [u]mortally[/u] sin. We are to avoid mortal sin at all costs, hence the reason we call it mortal. I once heard a priest put it well, he said, if you jump off a building, you may die or you may live, you don't know, but you take that chance, it is the same chance we take with our soul.

You are misunderstanding God loving us unconditionally, He does, but, if you go back to my "emotive paragraph" you will see that He continues to warn us, out of love, in fact, God became man in order to warn us, He took on our sins so that we would not have this happen, out of love, and, yet, we take advantage of what He has done for us. He did it out of love, but we sin out of love for ourselves. How can it be God's fault if you continue to sin, if you continue to [u]knowingly[/u] separate yourself from Him? He loves us unconditionally, He knows we sin, but He does not want us to mortally sin, because that is the dangerous one. If you want to play Russian Roulette with your soul, He can't stop you, He does not want a single soul in Hell, He tries to help us, and He offers us the grace to do so, but short of coming down here, slapping you upside the head and telling you to stop, He can't do much more. Remember the parable of the rich man and Lazarus

19 "There was a rich man, who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. 20 And at his gate lay a poor man named Laz'arus, full of sores, 21 who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man's table; moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried; 23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes, and saw Abraham far off and Laz'arus in his bosom. 24 And he called out, 'Father Abraham, have mercy upon me, and send Laz'arus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame.' 25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Laz'arus in like manner evil things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.' 27 And he said, 'Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father's house, 28 for I have five brothers, so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.' 29 But Abraham said, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.' 30 And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if some one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' 31 He said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced if some one should rise from the dead.'"

What more does He have to do to get through to you?

Edited October 5, 2009 by Theologian in Training

[Innocent]

[quote name='OraProMe' date='05 October 2009 - 06:19 PM' timestamp='1254743361' post='1978121']
Theoretically I could lead a spiritual and decent life, go to confession a have all my sins forgiven, masturbate before I go to bed, die in my sleep and then go straight to Hell for that one sin.[/quote]

If someone goes to Confession and then on the very same night indulges in the solitary vice, then it is quite natural to assume that the reason for this was either (1)that his Confession was not sincere, or that (2)his preparation for Confession (examen, sorrow, resolve to repent, do penance, atone, and following through on this resolve to atone and do reparation, etc.) was not properly done, or that (3)he has allowed himself to be near an internal or external occasion of temptation and sin, which he should have been careful not to do , or that (4)he has had an addiction to self-abuse for a long period and the compulsion is too much for him to bear, in which case there is room for reduced culpability, since it is printed in the CCC:

[quote][url="http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/2352.htm"]2352[/url] By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. "Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action." "The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose." For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of "the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved."

[b]To form an equitable judgment about the subjects' moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety or other psychological or social factors that lessen, if not even reduce to a minimum, moral culpability.[/b]
[/quote]

I cannot think of more possibilities. If you can, I'd be willing to consider them. In the above cases, in 1,2,&3, it certainly does not indicate that he has been generous enough in leading a spiritual life. He could have done better. In 4, there is always reduced culpability. And in the end, as we all know well, only God can judge the state of a person's soul. Even in the case of suicides, we are now taught to hope that God will be merciful to them.
[quote][url="http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/2281.htm"]CCC 2283[/url] We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. The Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives.[/quote]
So the principal motive in living the Christian life should be fear of hell only second and first, sorrow at offending God our loving Father who has adopted us as his children in Christ through divine filiation. Isn't this what the Chruch means by calling it "Imperfect Contrition" when it is due to fear of punishment, and "Perfect Contrition" when it is motivated by sorrow at having offended God?

Also, that single incident of sin which you mention, indicates deeper inside the soul an unmortified vice or disordered passion, a tendency towards sin and self-love which rejects God, which ought to be checked, and thus the soul is in great danger from this inner unmortified vice even if the exterior instances of sin are only one or two. Fr. Edward Leen makes this point in his book [url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/SPIRIT/MENTAL.TXT"]Progress Through Mental Prayer.[/url]

Also, in [url="http://www.archive.org/details/theologyandsanit009981mbp"]Theology and Sanity[/url], Frank Sheed has treated this point:

[quote]the tendency to treat God as an equal, the failure to realize the relation of the creature to the Creator, may be stated
very rapidly. It is commoner in the semi-religious fringe than among practising Christians, but it is liable to show up anywhere. The commonest form of it is in the feeling that God is not making a very good job of the universe and that one could give Him some fairly useful suggestions. Another deadly effect of it is in the diminishing, to the point almost of disappearance, of the sense of sin. It would be too much to say that Catholics are much given to either of these aberrations, but also too much to say that we are entirely untouched by them. At any rate nothing would be lost by some kind of examination of intellect in this matter of the dwindling difference between the Infinite and ourselves. To take an obvious example. When some man well known to us who has lived a full and devout Catholic life for fifty or sixty years falls suddenly into serious sin, somewhere among our reactions will be the feeling that it is rather hard on him, after having given so much to God for so long, now at the end to lose all. It is a natural enough reaction and might seem to do some credit to our heart, but it does no credit at all to our head. The man has not been giving to God all those years: he has been receiving immeasurable gifts from God all those years. The malice of his sin is far greater precisely because of the immensity of God's gifts to him.[/quote]

It appears to me that in his post above, Father was expressing the same point in different words above, so since you didn't accept his point, I'm not sure if you will find Frank Sheed's point of any value.

It is my understanding (and others who have studied Catholic Theology please correct me if I am wrong) that Catholic Moral Theology has a long tradition of taking into account human frailty and the attenuating circumstances in each individual's life. At least, I learn that this was the view held by St. Alpohnsus Liguori, known as the Prince of Moralists. For lack of time to search for a better source, I quote from the Wikipedia article on St. Liguori:

[quote]Alphonsus' greatest contribution to the Church was in the area of moral theological reflection with his Moral Theology. This work was born of Alphonsus' pastoral experience, his ability to respond to the practical questions posed by the faithful and from his contact with their everyday problems. He opposed sterile legalism and strict rigorism - according to Alphonsus, those were paths closed to the Gospel because "such rigor has never been taught nor practiced by the Church". His system of moral theology is noted for its prudence, avoiding both laxism and excessive rigor. He is credited with the position of Aequiprobablism, which avoided Jansenist rigorism as well as laxism and simple probablism.
[/quote][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alphonsus_Liguori"]SOURCE[/url]

[quote]
During the controversies between the Probabilists and the Probabiliorists, the system known as Æquiprobabilism was not clearly brought into prominence. Æquiprobabilism holds that it is not lawful to follow the less safe opinion when the safe opinion is certainly more probable; that it is not lawful to act on the less safe opinion even when it is equally probable with the safe opinion, if the uncertainty regards the cessation of a law; but that if the existence of the law is in question, it is lawful to follow the less safe opinion if it has equal or nearly equal probability with the safe opinion. Many of the moderate Probabilists of the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries foreshadowed in their writings the theory to which, in his later-days, St. Alphonsus adhered.

This view gained vigour and persistence from the teaching of Alphonsus Liguori, who began his theological career as a Probabiliorist, subsequently defended Probabilism, especially in a treatise entitled Dissertatio scholastico-moralis pro usu moderato opinionis probabilis in concursu probabilioris (1749, 1755), and finally embraced Æquiprobabilism about 1762. In a new dissertation he laid down the two propositions that it is lawful to act on the less safe opinion, when it is equally probable with the safe opinion, and that it is not lawful to follow the less safe opinion when the safe opinion is notably and certainly more probable. In the sixth edition (1767) of his Moral Theology he again expressed these views and indeed towards the end of his life frequently declared that he was not a Probabilist.

Probabilists sometimes hold that St. Alphonsus never changed his opinion once he had discarded Probabiliorism for Probabilism, though he changed his manner of expressing his view so as to exclude Laxist teaching and to give an indication of what must be regarded as a solidly probable opinion. As a matter of fact, a comparison between the "Moral Theologies" of moderate Probabilists and of Æquiprobabilists shows little practical difference between the two systems, so far at least as the uncertainty regards the existence as distinguished from the cessation of a law.
[edit] Later developments

Since the time of Alphonsus Liguori the prevailing moral systems have been Probabilism and Æquiprobabilism. [/quote] [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Probabilism#.C3.86quiprobabilism"]SOURCE[/url]

To give that some support, here are some hastily found non-Wikipedia sources:

[quote]Fleming’s cure is a powerful and provocative examination of the wisdom of the ancients. From Aristotle to Aquinas Fleming explains the ancient Christian, pagan, and Judaic dictums and teachings with a familiarity that only a life long study can provide. His primary prescription indeed, the leitmotif of the book, lies in the ancient concept of casuistry, “a sophisticated tradition of ethical discussion” predicated on two principles. “First, that there are general and universally applicable moral laws governing human conduct; second, that these laws may not be applied simplistically and uniformly to the great variety of human circumstances and situations.”

[b]The author refers to a Catholic casuistry best exemplified by St. Alphonsus Maria de Liguori (1696-1787) and his book Theologia Moralis.

Fleming writes, “Rejecting absolutism as both impractical and, in this human world, impossible, he argued from the basis of probability, always making allowances for human frailty. The result of his method is a mature and humane approach to moral problems that have never been equaled.”[/b]

The ancients better understood the fallen nature of man than any contemporary philosopher. The application of moral laws to such a frail creature is not an easy job. Fleming explains, “Different casuists, whether philosophers or novelists, will come to different conclusions, because ethics is not (as St. Alphonsus acknowledged) an abstract science; it is more like the art of tuning a piano or tacking a sailing ship against the wind. The rules are as fixed as the points of a compass or the overtone series, but applying them to the imperfections of human life is a messy and sometimes dangerous business.”[/quote]SOURCE: [url="http://calitreview.com/142"]Book Review of Morality of Everyday Life by Thomas Fleming[/url]

[quote]St. Alphonsus as a moral theologian occupies the golden mean between the schools tending either to laxity or to rigour which divided the theological world of his time. When he was preparing for the priesthood in Naples, his masters were of the rigid school, for though the center of Jansenistic disturbance was in northern Europe, no shore was so remote as not to feel the ripple of its waves. When the Saint began to hear confessions, however, he soon saw the harm done by rigorism, and for the rest of his life he inclined more to the mild school of the Jesuit theologians, whom he calls "the masters of morals". St. Alphonsus, however, did not in all things follow their teaching, especially on one point much debated in the schools; namely, whether we may in practice follow an opinion which denies a moral obligation, when the opinion which affirms a moral obligation seems to us to be altogether more probable. This is the great question of "Probabilism". St. Alphonsus, after publishing anonymously (in 1749 and 1755) two treatises advocating the right to follow the less probable opinion, in the end decided against that lawfulness, and in case of doubt only allowed freedom from obligation where the opinions for and against the law were equal or nearly equal. He called his system Equiprobabilism. [/quote]SOURCE: [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01334a.htm"]1910 Catholic Encyclopedia[/url]

Edited October 5, 2009 by Innocent

[jkaands]

Is obesity a mortal sin?

It is an abuse of the body, a manifestation of Gluttony (indirectly also of Sloth) both mortal sins. It causes a multitude of diseases which harm and kill the body, God's creation: asthma, hypertension, coronary disease, atherosclerosis, diabetes, with all of its complications, including blindness and amputation, and is associated with a variety of cancers: breast, endometrium, colon, ovary. Obesity is caused by overeating, which drives prices up, stealing food from the poor.

It's much more damaging than masturbation.

So?

[Theologian in Training]

It was St. Alphonsus' "Preparation for Death," and his chapter on the abuses of graces that I was instructed to read when I went to confession after a long time of taking the confessional for granted. The priest said he would not absolve me until after I had read that chapter and it was the best thing he did for me. It led to me re-conversion after having left the seminary, to not only struggle again for holiness but to return to the vocation that God had called me to. St. Alphonsus made me realize that time is short, that death is unexpected, and that sin is an enemy.

While I understand where the Catechism is coming from, it is too easy to excuse those who suffer from that sin, and to let them remain complacent in it, which is why I help them to understand what they are doing, the damage they are doing, and to help them realize that the chain can be broken with the grace of Christ. In fact, people have thanked me for what I tell them, because too many priests don't want to say anything or those that do, don't really call them out on it. That, of course, it not across the board, but it is important that they realize the impact that that sin has on their lives.

[OraProMe]

I'd also like to know what mortal sins deserve eternal damnation in Hell? I'm sorry but being burnt for all eternity, a fire that afflicts both the soul and the body and never stops, is crueler than any psychopath or serial killer I have ever heard about.

What crimes fit that punishment? How come two people, one who sleeps in on Sunday and one who rapes a girl, will end up with the same sentence?

[OraProMe]

[quote name='Theologian in Training' date='05 October 2009 - 09:07 AM' timestamp='1254751631' post='1978177']
It was St. Alphonsus' "Preparation for Death," and his chapter on the abuses of graces that I was instructed to read when I went to confession after a long time of taking the confessional for granted. The priest said he would not absolve me until after I had read that chapter and it was the best thing he did for me. It led to me re-conversion after having left the seminary, to not only struggle again for holiness but to return to the vocation that God had called me to. St. Alphonsus made me realize that time is short, that death is unexpected, and that sin is an enemy.
[/quote]

I know you must be incredibly busy but if you ever feel up to it and you're comfortable with the idea would you consider making a thread and sharing your vocation story, life in the seminary and life as a priest with us? I think it'd be really interesting.

[rkwright]

[quote name='OraProMe' date='05 October 2009 - 09:08 AM' timestamp='1254751689' post='1978178']
I'd also like to know what mortal sins deserve eternal damnation in Hell? I'm sorry but being burnt for all eternity, a fire that afflicts both the soul and the body and never stops, is crueler than any psychopath or serial killer I have ever heard about.

What crimes fit that punishment? How come two people, one who sleeps in on Sunday and one who rapes a girl, will end up with the same sentence?
[/quote]

Every soul in hell is in hell justly. Their punishment fit their "crime".

The crime is disobeying God - they didn't want anything to do with God. And thats what they got.

[rkwright]

Fr. Brian great to have you back!

[Innocent]

[quote name='Theologian in Training' date='05 October 2009 - 08:37 PM' timestamp='1254751631' post='1978177']
It was St. Alphonsus' "Preparation for Death," and his chapter on the abuses of graces that I was instructed to read when I went to confession after a long time of taking the confessional for granted. The priest said he would not absolve me until after I had read that chapter and it was the best thing he did for me. It led to me re-conversion after having left the seminary, to not only struggle again for holiness but to return to the vocation that God had called me to. St. Alphonsus made me realize that time is short, that death is unexpected, and that sin is an enemy. [/quote]

Father, just wanted to let you know that St. Alphonsus' Preparation For Death is online in the Public Domain. If you want to recommend anyone to read it, you can just send them a link to the Internet Archive:

[url="http://www.archive.org/details/MN41781ucmf_1"]Preparation for death [microform](1869) Author: Alfonso, bishop of St. Agatha;[/url]

[quote name='Theologian in Training' date='05 October 2009 - 08:37 PM' timestamp='1254751631' post='1978177']While I understand where the Catechism is coming from, it is too easy to excuse those who suffer from that sin, and to let them remain complacent in it, which is why I help them to understand what they are doing, the damage they are doing, and to help them realize that the chain can be broken with the grace of Christ.
[/quote]
Thank you, Father. I think what you are doing is much needed these days when so few priests are willing to offer serious advice on these sins.

Edited October 5, 2009 by Innocent

[Laudate_Dominum]

I know it is seriously wrong to overhear somebody's confession, but what if you accidentally see what they're saying? What happened is a guy was confessing and he very blatantly did the gesture for masturbation while whispering to the priest. The priest was hard of hearing so he did it on purpose too. I think he just didn't care that people could see.

[rkwright]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='05 October 2009 - 09:26 AM' timestamp='1254752783' post='1978187']
I know it is seriously wrong to overhear somebody's confession, but what if you accidentally see what they're saying? What happened is a guy was confessing and he very blatantly did the gesture for masturbation while whispering to the priest. The priest was hard of hearing so he did it on purpose too. I think he just didn't care that people could see.
[/quote]

lol seriously??

"And then I strangled him... not so much like this, but more like this..."

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='rkwright' date='05 October 2009 - 10:32 AM' timestamp='1254753149' post='1978190']
lol seriously??

"And then I strangled him... not so much like this, but more like this..."
[/quote]
Yeah, it was at FUS where they have confession all out in the open (which I cannot get used to, lol).

Dude, I've got stories... Most aren't appropriate for sharing though..