Hell Fire

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Hassan' date='05 October 2009 - 12:43 AM' timestamp='1254717824' post='1977983']
Right now, according to the Catholic Church, my soul is in quite a precarious state. I'm probably guilty of more than a few mortal sins. I can honestly say that I do not see how any sin I have committed merits eternal, unending torment without the possibility of redemption. If the Church is the Bride of Christ then I have sinned mightily against both God and my fellow man. But even accecpting that dubious antecedent I fail to see how any merit [i]eternal[/i] damnation.
[/quote]

Hm, sounds like pride should be on that list.

[Hassan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='05 October 2009 - 12:45 AM' timestamp='1254717912' post='1977985']
Hm, sounds like pride should be on that list.
[/quote]


Well as a general point yes, but regarding that post I don't see any pride.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Hassan' date='04 October 2009 - 11:43 PM' timestamp='1254717824' post='1977983']
Right now, according to the Catholic Church, my soul is in quite a precarious state. I'm probably guilty of more than a few mortal sins. I can honestly say that I do not see how any sin I have committed merits eternal, unending torment without the possibility of redemption. If the Church is the Bride of Christ then I have sinned mightily against both God and my fellow man. But even accecpting that dubious antecedent I fail to see how any merit [i]eternal[/i] damnation.
[/quote]

I fail to see how things like heresy, schism, apostasy, blasphemy, murder, fornication, and adultery (to name a few sins that the Church considers mortal) [i]don't[/i] merit eternal punishment.

Edited October 5, 2009 by Resurrexi

[Hassan]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='05 October 2009 - 12:47 AM' timestamp='1254718052' post='1977989']
I fail to see how things like heresy, schism, apostasy, blasphemy, murder, fornication, and adultery (to name a few sins that the Church considers mortal) [i]don't[/i] merit eternal punishment.
[/quote]


Then we have a fundamentally divergent sense of justice. I don't see how breaking one's communion with the ecclesiastical authority merits eternal, unending torment while you can't see how disputes over apostolic tradition could merit anything other than eternal punishment.

What is the point of this punishment?

Edited October 5, 2009 by Hassan

[Winchester]

[quote name='Hassan' date='04 October 2009 - 08:45 PM' timestamp='1254703511' post='1977753']
God is the agent who set's up the dichotomous game and then forces his creatures to choose. [/quote]But He's got all the power. Why mess with Him? It makes no sense.

Besides, by definition, anything He does is good.

Edited October 5, 2009 by Winchester

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Hassan' date='04 October 2009 - 11:55 PM' timestamp='1254718504' post='1977998']
Then we have a fundamentally divergent sense of justice. I don't see how breaking one's communion with the ecclesiastical authority merits eternal, unending torment while you can't see how disputes over apostolic tradition could merit anything other than eternal punishment.

What is the point of this punishment?
[/quote]

I would think that the purpose of hell is to deter people from sinning and to demonstrate God's justice.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Innocent' date='04 October 2009 - 09:00 PM' timestamp='1254711630' post='1977872']
Have these Ascetical Homilies been placed online anywhere?[/quote]
I do not believe so, but you have been successful in finding other texts online.

[quote name='Innocent' date='04 October 2009 - 09:00 PM' timestamp='1254711630' post='1977872']
(This is the same saint who is also known as St. Issac of Nineveh, isn't it?) I have been looking for them for some time.
[/quote]
Yes, the same.

[Apotheoun]

God is the final end of all mankind, but how each man experiences that end is left to the power of his own free will.

[Laudate_Dominum]

Sin is lame.

[OraProMe]

One of the biggest problems I have with the Catholic idea of heaven and hell is the teaching that any soul stained with even one mortal sin goes to Hell. Theoretically I could lead a spiritual and decent life, go to confession a have all my sins forgiven, masturbate before I go to bed, die in my sleep and then go straight to Hell for that one sin.

That just seems a bit trivial to me.

Edited October 5, 2009 by OraProMe

[Didacus]

[quote name='OraProMe' date='02 October 2009 - 11:36 PM' timestamp='1254540992' post='1976560']
Do you believe that there is actually fire in Hell? To me fire and torture seem like completely human concepts of punishment for sin, not God's idea.
[/quote]

Maybe a scholar can correct me on this.

I believe the concept of hell fire, and the gruesome images of hell were formed long ago, at a time when most people could not read or write. People were very simple and needed images to understand abstract concepts such as hell, heaven etc... So to let people know how terrible hell is, even though it is a mere seperation from God (so to speak), images of torture, fire and terrible things werre introduced. These images, although mostly an invention of human imagination, served to prove the point that hell is not a 'happy' place, and you should not wish to go there and you should be frigthened at the thought.


With taht said, I know Jesus spoke of hell with flames (and several pasasges in the old testament as well), but I perceive that Jesus (and the old testtament) as well was speaking in symbols rather than actual fact. Remember JEsus and the prophets lived at a time when few knew how to read, thus few could visualize abstract concepts, thus imagery was required to prove a point to the masses.

[Didacus]

[quote name='Hassan' date='05 October 2009 - 12:43 AM' timestamp='1254717824' post='1977983']
The soul that accuses itself!

It's also a line from the Qur'an.

Right now, according to the Catholic Church, my soul is in quite a precarious state. I'm probably guilty of more than a few mortal sins. I can honestly say that I do not see how any sin I have committed merits eternal, unending torment without the possibility of redemption. If the Church is the Bride of Christ then I have sinned mightily against both God and my fellow man. But even accecpting that dubious antecedent I fail to see how any merit [i]eternal[/i] damnation.
[/quote]


Augustine gave a pretty explanation of eternal hell being a jsut punishment for sins committed in life.

He said to consider this;

How long does it take to steel a 100$?
How long does it take to murder a person?


Now how long, once found guilty, is your jail term for these crimes?

The length of time itself does not impact on the length of the punishment. So even if you took only 5 minutes to kill someone, your sentence could be the rest of your life! Comparitively, even if you make one single mortal sin within a finite life here on earth, your punishment can be severe and ever lasting in the next life. This isd not outside human rational thinking to punish for a disproportionate time a crime that took only minutes to commit, then why would we be surprised if God used a similar rational to condem the damned?

[OraProMe]

Because God is not man.
Because mortal sins don't just include things that harm others like murder and adultery but also eating meat on Fridays, missing Mass, masturbation, contraception, making out with your girlfriend.
Because a prison sentence is not the same as spending all eternity burning in Hell.

[Theologian in Training]

[quote name='OraProMe' date='05 October 2009 - 09:08 AM' timestamp='1254744505' post='1978127']
Because God is not man.
Because mortal sins don't just include things that harm others like murder and adultery but also eating meat on Fridays, missing Mass, masturbation, contraception, making out with your girlfriend.
Because a prison sentence is not the same as spending all eternity burning in Hell.
[/quote]

Did you make the rules?
Did not Jesus purchase you with the price of His own blood?
Are you God?

The body is not meant for immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. And God raised the Lord and will also raise us up by his power. Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I therefore take the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? Never! 16 Do you not know that he who joins himself to a prostitute becomes one body with her? For, as it is written, "The two shall become one flesh." But he who is united to the Lord becomes one spirit with him. Shun immorality. Every other sin which a man commits is outside the body; but the immoral man sins against his own body. Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, which you have from God? You are not your own; you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body. (1 Cor. 6:14-20)

Someone gives you a priceless gift, yet, you take it, abuse it, use it as you want. You know that this is displeasing to the person, but you continue to do it anyway, knowing that not only does it hurt the person that gave it to you, it also more and more severs the relationship you have. That person pleads with you to stop, tells you that what you are doing is wrong, but you won't listen. He even warns you that the gift is more precious than you might realize, and that by abusing that gift, you are a making a choice that could have dire consequences. Yet, you continue. What more do you want that person to do for you? What more do you want them to tell you? Do you want them to even take all of those things and put them on His shoulder? Do you want Him to die for you? If that is not good enough, what is?

[OraProMe]

[quote name='Theologian in Training' date='05 October 2009 - 08:12 AM' timestamp='1254748332' post='1978142']
Did you make the rules?
Did not Jesus purchase you with the price of His own blood?
Are you God?
Someone gives you a priceless gift, yet, you take it, abuse it, use it as you want. You know that this is displeasing to the person, but you continue to do it anyway, knowing that not only does it hurt the person that gave it to you, it also more and more severs the relationship you have. That person pleads with you to stop, tells you that what you are doing is wrong, but you won't listen. He even warns you that the gift is more precious than you might realize, and that by abusing that gift, you are a making a choice that could have dire consequences. Yet, you continue. What more do you want that person to do for you? What more do you want them to tell you? Do you want them to even take all of those things and put them on His shoulder? Do you want Him to die for you? If that is not good enough, what is?
[/quote]

That's a really moving, emotive paragraph but it doesn't really answer my objection, Father. What you quoted was a response to the previous poster who compared prison sentences for crimes such as murder to eternal hell fire for one mortal sin, which can be something as small as missing Mass. It has to be read as a response to the previous poster, not on its own.

Maybe you'd be able to address this for me, because I'm confused:

[quote]
One of the biggest problems I have with the Catholic idea of heaven and hell is the teaching that any soul stained with even one mortal sin goes to Hell. Theoretically I could lead a spiritual and decent life, go to confession a have all my sins forgiven, masturbate before I go to bed, die in my sleep and then go straight to Hell for that one sin.

That just seems a bit trivial to me.
[/quote]

Edited October 5, 2009 by OraProMe