Hassan Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 [quote name='hot stuff' date='04 October 2009 - 08:05 PM' timestamp='1254701159' post='1977727'] Its not sadistic its logical If one refuses to accept God, (s)he refuses to accept all good things. Because God is the Creator of all good things. If there is nothing good for you to experience you have only pain. If I consciously choose not to accept water. I'm going to suffer horrible pain and die. It doesn't mean water is being sadistic. [/quote] God is the agent who set's up the dichotomous game and then forces his creatures to choose. We are now in a state in which one is neither in the full presence of God nor in unending torment. Obviously God is not logically prohibited from some sort of alternative between all or nothing. Moreover he allows no chance for repentance once the soul in in hell. If he must bring an end to this life he could at least destroy the sinful soul and spare it eternal torment. That's a poor analogy. The water has no agency, it does not dictate that we die an agonizing death without it. If water did have agency, did dictate that if we did not meet its demands it would withdraw from our presence and forever leave us in agonizing torment then yes, the water would be sadistic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OraProMe Posted October 5, 2009 Author Share Posted October 5, 2009 I went to give that a +1, Hassan, but I have none left today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 [quote name='Hassan' date='04 October 2009 - 08:45 PM' timestamp='1254703511' post='1977753'] God is the agent who set's up the dichotomous game and then forces his creatures to choose. [/quote] We are free to choose whatever we want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theologian in Training Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 [quote name='Hassan' date='04 October 2009 - 09:45 PM' timestamp='1254703511' post='1977753'] God is the agent who set's up the dichotomous game and then forces his creatures to choose. We are now in a state in which one is neither in the full presence of God nor in unending torment. Obviously God is not logically prohibited from some sort of alternative between all or nothing. Moreover he allows no chance for repentance once the soul in in hell. If he must bring an end to this life he could at least destroy the sinful soul and spare it eternal torment. That's a poor analogy. The water has no agency, it does not dictate that we die an agonizing death without it. If water did have agency, did dictate that if we did not meet its demands it would withdraw from our presence and forever leave us in agonizing torment then yes, the water would be sadistic. [/quote] Are you trying to imply that God created Hell? Fr. Amorth once asked a demon to know whether he had contributed to the creation of hell, the demon replied: "All of us cooperated" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Theologian in Training' date='04 October 2009 - 10:00 PM' timestamp='1254708005' post='1977810'] Are you trying to imply that God created Hell? Fr. Amorth once asked a demon to know whether he had contributed to the creation of hell, the demon replied: "All of us cooperated" [/quote] God did create hell though right ? He's also present in hell correct ? For the record I'm for hell. Even if I end up there. I hope not but ya. We need hell. People are evil. Edited October 5, 2009 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OraProMe Posted October 5, 2009 Author Share Posted October 5, 2009 [quote name='Theologian in Training' date='04 October 2009 - 09:00 PM' timestamp='1254708005' post='1977810'] Are you trying to imply that God created Hell? Fr. Amorth once asked a demon to know whether he had contributed to the creation of hell, the demon replied: "All of us cooperated" [/quote] God didn't create hell? Why does he let people go there then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theologian in Training Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 [quote name='OraProMe' date='04 October 2009 - 11:19 PM' timestamp='1254709140' post='1977823'] God didn't create hell? Why does he let people go there then? [/quote] It is actually believed that we put ourselves there, knowing our unworthiness for Heaven, it is our conscience that accuses us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OraProMe Posted October 5, 2009 Author Share Posted October 5, 2009 [quote name='Theologian in Training' date='04 October 2009 - 09:31 PM' timestamp='1254709863' post='1977838'] It is actually believed that we put ourselves there, knowing our unworthiness for Heaven, it is our conscience that accuses us. [/quote] I have never heard, read or been taught that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 [quote name='Delivery Boy' date='04 October 2009 - 10:05 PM' timestamp='1254708323' post='1977813'] For the record I'm for hell. Even if I end up there. I hope not but ya. We need hell. People are evil. [/quote] Um. [quote name='OraProMe' date='04 October 2009 - 10:37 PM' timestamp='1254710224' post='1977844'] I have never heard, read or been taught that. [/quote] Same. After all, we are all unworthy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Innocent Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Apotheoun' date='05 October 2009 - 02:49 AM' timestamp='1254687558' post='1977472'] [i]St. Isaac the Syrian, Ascetical Homily 28[/i] [/quote] Have these Ascetical Homilies been placed online anywhere? (This is the same saint who is also known as St. Issac of Nineveh, isn't it?) I have been looking for them for some time. Edited October 5, 2009 by Innocent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 (edited) [quote name='HisChildForever' date='04 October 2009 - 10:46 PM' timestamp='1254710784' post='1977852'] Um. [/quote] Im for hell in the sense I think it's necessary. It's just. No one will end up in hell who doesn't deserve to be there. On the contrary many will end up in Heaven who don't deserve to be there. (myself included if I make it) Edited October 5, 2009 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 [quote name='HisChildForever' date='04 October 2009 - 09:39 PM' timestamp='1254706749' post='1977793'] We are free to choose whatever we want. [/quote] Sure. You may submit to God's whims and decide you wish to worship him in perpetual adoration for the rest of eternity or be damned to unending torment without the possibility of redemption. I'm not arguing that God forces ones hand either way, but that the system itself is sick. In North Korea one may participate in the mass adoration of some petty despot or face torture and forced labour. If North Korea defended it's system to the world by pointing out that all the tortured freely chose actions which led to their torture that would hardly be seen as an adequate defense by most people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 [quote name='Theologian in Training' date='04 October 2009 - 10:00 PM' timestamp='1254708005' post='1977810'] Are you trying to imply that God created Hell?[/QUOTE] Sure. Unless the Catholic Church teaches that hell exists in defiance of God's will. But the creation or origin of hell does not matter to me. [QUOTE] Fr. Amorth once asked a demon to know whether he had contributed to the creation of hell, the demon replied: "All of us cooperated" [/quote] At least he had a trustworthy source. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 [quote name='Hassan' date='04 October 2009 - 11:35 PM' timestamp='1254717329' post='1977966'] decide you wish to worship him in perpetual adoration for the rest of eternity [/quote] That sounds like fun to me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 [quote name='Theologian in Training' date='04 October 2009 - 10:31 PM' timestamp='1254709863' post='1977838'] It is actually believed that we put ourselves there, knowing our unworthiness for Heaven, it is our conscience that accuses us. [/quote] The soul that accuses itself! It's also a line from the Qur'an. Right now, according to the Catholic Church, my soul is in quite a precarious state. I'm probably guilty of more than a few mortal sins. I can honestly say that I do not see how any sin I have committed merits eternal, unending torment without the possibility of redemption. If the Church is the Bride of Christ then I have sinned mightily against both God and my fellow man. But even accecpting that dubious antecedent I fail to see how any merit [i]eternal[/i] damnation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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