Hell Fire

[Sternhauser]

Double post.

Edited October 4, 2009 by Sternhauser

[OraProMe]

[quote name='sacredheartandbloodofjesus' date='03 October 2009 - 09:45 PM' timestamp='1254624312' post='1977074']
Well first off, souls in hell are reunited with their bodies at the resurrection of the dead just as the saints will be too. Then they are damned eternally to the abyss with their bodies, so their will be some sort of physical pain along with the spiritual pain.
[/quote]

Church teaching is that the soul of one who dies in mortal sin goes straight to hell after their particular judgment and is only reunited with their body at the end of the world. So do we only feel the physical fire of Hell after the resurrection of our bodies?

[Innocent]

For what it's worth, here's the relevant section from the 1910 [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07207a.htm"]Catholic Encyclopedia[/url] at New Advent:

[quote][size="5"][b]Poena sensus[/b][/size]

The poena sensus, or pain of sense, consists in the torment of fire so frequently mentioned in the Holy Bible. According to the greater number of theologians the term fire denotes a material fire, and so a real fire. We hold to this teaching as absolutely true and correct. However, we must not forget two things: from Catharinus (d. 1553) to our times there have never been wanting theologians who interpret the Scriptural term fire metaphorically, as denoting an incorporeal fire; and secondly, thus far the Church has not censured their opinion. Some few of the Fathers also thought of a metaphorical explanation. Nevertheless, Scripture and tradition speak again and again of the fire of hell, and there is no sufficient reason for taking the term as a mere metaphor. It is urged: How can a material fire tormentdemons, or human souls before the resurrection of the body? But, if our soul is so joined to the body as to be keenly sensitive to the pain of fire, why should the omnipotent God be unable to bind even pure spirits to some material substance in such a manner that they suffer a torment more or less similar to the pain of fire which the soul can feel on earth? The reply indicates, as far as possible, how we may form an idea of the pain of fire which the demons suffer. Theologians have elaborated various theories on this subject, which, however, we do not wish to detail here (cf. the very minute study by Franz Schmid, "Quaestiones selectae ex theol. dogm.", Paderborn, 1891, q. iii; also Guthberlet, "Die poena sensus" in "Katholik", II, 1901, 305 sqq., 385 sqq.).

It is quite superfluous to add that the nature of hell-fire is different from that of our ordinary fire; for instance, it continues to burn without the need of a continually renewed supply of fuel. How are we to form a conception of that fire in detail remains quite undetermined; we merely know that it is corporeal. The demons suffer the torment of fire, even when, by Divine permission, they leave the confines of hell and roam about on earth. In what manner this happens is uncertain. We may assume that they remain fettered inseparably to a portion of that fire.

The pain of sense is the natural consequence of that inordinate turning to creatures which is involved in every mortal sin. It is meet that whoever seeks forbidden pleasure should find pain in return. (Cf. Heuse, "Das Feuer der Hölle" in "Katholik", II, 1878, 225 sqq., 337 sqq., 486 sqq., 581 sqq.; "Etudes religieuses", L, 1890, II, 309, report of an answer of thePoenitentiaria, 30 April, 1890; Knabenbauer, "In Matth., xxv, 41".) [/quote]


[quote name='Apotheoun' date='04 October 2009 - 01:42 AM' timestamp='1254597130' post='1976824']
Brimstone is the English translation of the Greek word "θείου," the root meaning of which is "divinity."
[/quote]

Is this meant to indicate that the presence of God is an unbearable torment to the souls in Hell?


[quote name='T-Bone _' date='04 October 2009 - 08:42 AM' timestamp='1254622379' post='1977039']
I've always imagined Hell as cold, damp, and lonely--nothingness would be much more miserable than the pain of fire.
[/quote]

You mean, similar to the Hell of C.S. Lewis' [i]The Great Divorce[/i]?

Edited October 4, 2009 by Innocent

[Luigi]

[quote name='OraProMe' date='03 October 2009 - 10:16 PM' timestamp='1254622565' post='1977043']
Me too T-bone.

I still want someone to answer my question about immaterial souls feeling physical pain
[/quote]

I agree: The physical body dies; only the non-physical soul goes to hell; fire, as we understand it here on Earth, probably has no effect on the non-physical soul. Therefore, fire is a metaphor for the degree of suffering that souls in hell experience.

I don't think the lack of physical fire will make hell any more comfortable or appealing, though.

[Hassan]

Why does it matter if it is physical suffering or "spiritual" suffering?


I'm not sure what exactly "spiritual" suffering would be, but I fail to see how it's any less sadistic than physical suffering.

[Laudate_Dominum]

That's because you fail to see how...

[mod]This post has been edited by Hassan: Today, 02:33 AM[/mod]

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Innocent' date='03 October 2009 - 11:02 PM' timestamp='1254632523' post='1977160']
Is this meant to indicate that the presence of God is an unbearable torment to the souls in Hell?
[/quote]
Yes. But remember that the pain of the damned is not caused by God.

[Theologian in Training]

[quote name='OraProMe' date='03 October 2009 - 08:49 PM' timestamp='1254613790' post='1976930']
How can our souls, which are immaterial and lack any of the five senses, feel physical pain?
[/quote]

How is pain limited to only physical pain? Remember the pain in the Garden of Gethsemane, when Jesus suffered so much that physically He bled, though He was experiencing spiritual pain? Or Mary, whose seven sorrows were nothing physical and all spiritual?

Also, why are you convinced that fire only burns that which is material?

[Laudate_Dominum]

Here is a snippet from the Summa of Aquinas (the appendices to the supplement more precisely):

[quote]
Given that the fire of hell is not so called metaphorically, nor an imaginary fire, but a real corporeal fire, we must needs say that the soul will suffer punishment from a corporeal fire, since our Lord said (Matthew 25:41) that this fire was prepared for the devil and his angels, who are incorporeal even as the soul. But how it is that they can thus suffer is explained in many ways.

For some have said that the mere fact that the soul sees the fire makes the soul suffer from the fire: wherefore Gregory (Dial. iv, 29) says: "The soul suffers from the fire by merely seeing it." But this does not seem sufficient, because whatever is seen, from the fact that it is seen, is a perfection of the seer. wherefore it cannot conduce to his punishment, as seen. Sometimes, however, it is of a penal or unpleasant nature accidentally, in so far, to wit, as it is apprehended as something hurtful, and consequently, besides the fact that the soul sees the fire, there must needs be some relation of the soul to the fire, according to which the fire is hurtful to the soul.

Hence others have said that although a corporeal fire cannot burn the soul, the soul nevertheless apprehends it as hurtful to itself, and in consequence of this apprehension is seized with fear and sorrow, in fulfillment of Psalm 13:5, "They have trembled for fear, where there was no fear." Hence Gregory says (Dial. iv, 29) that "the soul burns through seeing itself aflame." But this, again, seems insufficient, because in this case the soul would suffer from the fire, not in reality but only in apprehension: for although a real passion of sorrow or pain may result from a false imagination, as Augustine observes (Gen. ad lit. xii), it cannot be said in relation to that passion that one really suffers from the thing, but from the image of the thing that is present to one's fancy. Moreover, this kind of suffering would be more unlike real suffering than that which results from imaginary vision, since the latter is stated to result from real images of things, which images the soul carries about with it, whereas the former results from false fancies which the erring soul imagines: and furthermore, it is not probable that separated souls or demons, who are endowed with keen intelligence, would think it possible for a corporeal fire to hurt them, if they were nowise distressed thereby.

Hence others say that it is necessary to admit that the soul suffers even really from the corporeal fire: wherefore Gregory says (Dial. iv, 29): "We can gather from the words of the Gospel, that the soul suffers from the fire not only by seeing it, but also by feeling it." They explain the possibility of this as follows. They say that this corporeal fire can be considered in two ways. First, as a corporeal thing, and thus it has not the power to act on the soul. Secondly, as the instrument of the vengeance of Divine justice. For the order of Divine justice demands that the soul which by sinning subjected itself to corporeal things should be subjected to them also in punishment. Now an instrument acts not only in virtue of its own nature, but also in virtue of the principal agent: wherefore it is not unreasonable if that fire, seeing that it acts in virtue of a spiritual agent, should act on the spirit of a man or demon, in the same way as we have explained the sanctification of the soul by the sacraments (III, 62, 1,4).

But, again, this does not seem to suffice, since every instrument, in acting on that on which it is used instrumentally, has its own connatural action besides the action whereby it acts in virtue of the principal agent: in fact it is by fulfilling the former that it effects the latter action, even as, in Baptism, it is by laving the body that water sanctifies the soul, and the saw by cutting wood produces the shape of a house.

Hence we must allow the fire to exercise on the soul an action connatural to the fire, in order that it may be the instrument of Divine justice in the punishment of sin: and for this reason we must say that a body cannot naturally act on a spirit, nor in any way be hurtful or distressful to it, except in so far as the latter is in some way united to a body: for thus we observe that "the corruptible body is a load upon the soul" (Wisdom 9:15). Now a spirit is united to a body in two ways. In one way as form to matter, so that from their union there results one thing simply: and the spirit that is thus united to a body both quickens the body and is somewhat burdened by the body: but it is not thus that the spirit of man or demon is united to the corporeal fire. In another way as the mover is united to the things moved, or as a thing placed is united to place, even as incorporeal things are in a place. In this way created incorporeal spirits are confined to a place, being in one place in such a way as not to be in another. Now although of its nature a corporeal thing is able to confine an incorporeal spirit to a place, it is not able of its nature to detain an incorporeal spirit in the place to which it is confined, and so to tie it to that place that it be unable to seek another, since a spirit is not by nature in a place so as to be subject to place. But the corporeal fire is enabled as the instrument of the vengeance of Divine justice thus to detain a spirit; and thus it has a penal effect on it, by hindering it from fulfilling its own will, that is by hindering it from acting where it will and as it will.

This way is asserted by Gregory (Dial. iv, 29). For in explaining how the soul can suffer from that fire by feeling it, he expresses himself as follows: "Since Truth declares the rich sinner to be condemned to fire, will any wise man deny that the souls of the wicked are imprisoned in flames?" Julian [Bishop of Toledo, Prognostic ii, 17] says the same as quoted by the Master (Sent. iv, D, 44): "If the incorporeal spirit of a living man is held by the body, why shall it not be held after death by a corporeal fire?" and Augustine says (De Civ. Dei xxi, 10) that "just as, although the soul is spiritual and the body corporeal, man is so fashioned that the soul is united to the body as giving it life, and on account of this union conceives a great love for its body, so it is chained to the fire, as receiving punishment therefrom, and from this union conceives a loathing."

Accordingly we must unite all the aforesaid modes together, in order to understand perfectly how the soul suffers from a corporeal fire: so as to say that the fire of its nature is able to have an incorporeal spirit united to it as a thing placed is united to a place; that as the instrument of Divine justice it is enabled to detain it enchained as it were, and in this respect this fire is really hurtful to the spirit, and thus the soul seeing the fire as something hurtful to it is tormented by the fire. Hence Gregory (Dial. iv, 29) mentions all these in order, as may be seen from the above quotations.
[/quote]
Src: http://www.newadvent.org/summa/5070.htm

[Apotheoun]

The fire of hell is God's loving presence experienced as pain by the damned.

[Apotheoun]

[size="3"]Paradise is the love of God. . . .[but] I also maintain that those who are punished in gehenna are scourged by the scourge of love. Nay, what is so bitter and vehement as the torment of love? I mean that those who have become conscious that they have sinned against love suffer greater torment from this than from any fear of punishment. For the sorrow caused in the heart by sin against love is more poignant than any torment. It would be improper for a man to think that sinners in gehenna are deprived of the love of God. Love is given to all. But the power of love works in two ways: it torments sinners . . . but it becomes a source of joy for those who have observed its duties. Thus I say that this is the "torment of gehenna": bitter regret. - [i]St. Isaac the Syrian, Ascetical Homily 28[/i][/size]

[Resurrexi]

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRO-M4XyAbM[/media]

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='04 October 2009 - 04:42 PM' timestamp='1254688943' post='1977489']
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRO-M4XyAbM[/media]
[/quote]
The single best number from that movie - it's brilliant on so many levels. For instance, the juxtaposition of the number sung by Quasimodo right before it being entitled "Heaven's Light".

[Apotheoun]

Wow! It figures that Disney holds the copyright on hellfire.

[Jaime]

[quote name='Hassan' date='04 October 2009 - 02:14 AM' timestamp='1254636884' post='1977224']
Why does it matter if it is physical suffering or "spiritual" suffering?


I'm not sure what exactly "spiritual" suffering would be, but I fail to see how it's any less sadistic than physical suffering.
[/quote]

Its not sadistic its logical

If one refuses to accept God, (s)he refuses to accept all good things. Because God is the Creator of all good things. If there is nothing good for you to experience you have only pain.

If I consciously choose not to accept water. I'm going to suffer horrible pain and die. It doesn't mean water is being sadistic.