Health And Cloistered Life

[Indwelling Trinity]

Dear All:

I agree with nunsense. Carmelite life is very demanding. However, the Carmels you mention seem to be almost exclusively 1990's. Please correct me if I am wrong. Here in the US there is a little bit more latitude.

For example in one of my Carmels a 1991 I did much work as an assistant to the infirmarian (because of my background in internal medicine) in a community that was almost exclusively elderly. A community which more than once had me up at all hours of the night taking care of one or two sisters. Some times even having to sleep over in a chair in the sisters room when they were in the hospital. Reverend Mother was kind enough to let me sleep some extra time and if i was still exhausted she would allow me to have a cup of instant coffee before Lauds so i would be awake at prayer. However, this was the exception and not th rule.

We were allowed to drink water without permission and believe it or not that was a real treat!


But,being too concerned for one's health is in itself unhealthy and can become an obsession and also an excuse not to live the full life, nevertheless our rule tells us that necessity overrides the law.

This all is a delicate balance but in a rightly formed sensitive conscience we will know how to discern real need from neuroticism.

Yes Carmel is not the easiest order to join and persevere in. If one feels the need for a contemplative order less demanding something like the Visitation might be better. Just an example.

In community we did not have all the restrictions on topics of speech like you mentioned. I think this restriction can be rather oppressive to the spontanaity of the community. After all we should be able to help each other in times of trial as well as sharing good times.

Our Holy Mother tells us to let the sisters speak of whatever they wish as long as it is becoming to good religious. So it is my suspicion that all these restrictions are something that creeped in over the years. In my first community way back when, we were never even allowed to speak directly to each other but had to address everything to the prioress and she would then allow others to respond. It would get so that the only things the sisters would talk about was the cat or dog!

In my heart I do not think Teresa envisioned this type of an oppressive regimen. OHM if anything was a very spontaneous person with zest for life and a good humor. So just as a community can become too liberal where everyone just goes their own way, there is also the possibility of being too extreme. A bow kept drawn too taught will eventually break. so Carmelite or not, we all need some down time to remain intellectually, spiritually, Physically and emotionally healthy.

Common sense and austerity are not mutually exclusive of each other but rather compliment each other so as to allow us to persevere over a life time of fidelity.

As Our Holy Rule syas, "Balance is the guide to all the virtues"

Tenderly,

Indwelling Trinity

Edited October 2, 2009 by Indwelling Trinity

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Indwelling Trinity' date='02 October 2009 - 06:58 AM' timestamp='1254481119' post='1976148']
Dear LD:

Yes your assessment is right. naturally grown vegetables as well as fee range chicken and beef contain much more nutrients that those commercially grown. The same goes for fish.. wild caught fish is much more nutricious than pond bred spawned fish.

So even though you tomatoes and fruits may have little pock marks grown naturally, they are actually much better for you.

Indwelling Trinity
[/quote]
Thank you! Btw, I've been to the chapel in your avatar picture many times!

[Indwelling Trinity]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='02 October 2009 - 08:37 AM' timestamp='1254483448' post='1976155']
Thank you! Btw, I've been to the chapel in your avatar picture many times!
[/quote]

It is beautiful isn't it?

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Indwelling Trinity' date='02 October 2009 - 07:46 AM' timestamp='1254483981' post='1976156']
It is beautiful isn't it?
[/quote]
Yes! I think of it often actually.

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='Indwelling Trinity' date='02 October 2009 - 11:33 PM' timestamp='1254483234' post='1976154']
Dear All:

I agree with nunsense. Carmelite life is very demanding. However, the Carmels you mention seem to be almost exclusively 1990's. Please correct me if I am wrong. Here in the US there is a little bit more latitude.

For example in one of my Carmels a 1991 I did much work as an assistant to the infirmarian (because of my background in internal medicine) in a community that was almost exclusively elderly. A community which more than once had me up at all hours of the night taking care of one or two sisters. Some times even having to sleep over in a chair in the sisters room when they were in the hospital. Reverend Mother was kind enough to let me sleep some extra time and if i was still exhausted she would allow me to have a cup of instant coffee before Lauds so i would be awake at prayer. However, this was the exception and not th rule.

We were allowed to drink water without permission and believe it or not that was a real treat!


But,being too concerned for one's health is in itself unhealthy and can become an obsession and also an excuse not to live the full life, nevertheless our rule tells us that necessity overrides the law.

This all is a delicate balance but in a rightly formed sensitive conscience we will know how to discern real need from neuroticism.

Yes Carmel is not the easiest order to join and persevere in. If one feels the need for a contemplative order less demanding something like the Visitation might be better. Just an example.

In community we did not have all the restrictions on topics of speech like you mentioned. I think this restriction can be rather oppressive to the spontanaity of the community. After all we should be able to help each other in times of trial as well as sharing good times.

Our Holy Mother tells us to let the sisters speak of whatever they wish as long as it is becoming to good religious. So it is my suspicion that all these restrictions are something that creeped in over the years. In my first community way back when, we were never even allowed to speak directly to each other but had to address everything to the prioress and she would then allow others to respond. It would get so that the only things the sisters would talk about was the cat or dog!

In my heart I do not think Teresa envisioned this type of an oppressive regimen. OHM if anything was a very spontaneous person with zest for life and a good humor. So just as a community can become too liberal where everyone just goes their own way, there is also the possibility of being too extreme. A bow kept drawn too taught will eventually break. so Carmelite or not, we all need some down time to remain intellectually, spiritually, Physically and emotionally healthy.

Common sense and austerity are not mutually exclusive of each other but rather compliment each other so as to allow us to persevere over a life time of fidelity.

As Our Holy Rule syas, "Balance is the guide to all the virtues"

Tenderly,

Indwelling Trinity
[/quote]

Actually, WV and Edmonton are 1991s and Kirk Edge is 1990, and there were slight differences in all of them. I also nursed an elderly sister at WV during the nights and sometimes Mother would allow me extra sleep, but one time I did ask for a nap in the afternoon and was told that I would have to offer up the tiredness as a mortification, so it really depends on the mood of the Prioress how these things are handled. I think that on two occasions I was offered a cup of tea or coffee outside of the usual hours, for special reasons, but once again, the Prioress offered this, I didn't ask. At Edmonton however, we were allowed to go into the area near the kitchen and help ourselves to a cup of tea or coffee at any time! Not many sisters did, but I often went down for a cuppa when I was tired.

As for conversation, at Edmonton (a 1991 mind you) we could only speak through Mother at recreation, whereas at both WV and KE we could speak to the sister on either our left or right. In St Teresa's time, the nuns could walk about the garden during recreation and speak in twos and threes. Sisters could also ask for permission to speak to each other just to animate their love of their Spouse or to comfort each other during temptation! There is a wonderful book by the first Prioress of Seville, Sister Maria de San Jose Salazar called [url="http://www.amazon.com/Recreation-Other-Voice-Modern-Europe/dp/0226734552"]Book for the Hour of Recreation[/url](The Other Voice in Early Modern Europe) that details imaginary conversations by Spanish nuns during recreation (and most of their conversations were about Holy Mother St Teresa, but also Father Gracian and other things relating to the early days in Carmel) - and since it was written by someone who was very close to St Teresa, it is fascinating. It is just full of the life and spirit of the early Carmels.

During our Recreations at WV and KE, we could not speak across a sister or across the room, but we could address Mother if we wanted to whole room to hear something. These customs are not in the Constitutions, but in a document called the Paper of Extractions, which was basically the customs and traditions of the community, and each community had their own, even though many were similar, especially those with the same foundress.

I agree with your comments on the rigidity of the customs because they did tend to take more focus than they warranted, especially since Holy Mother Teresa did not want her nuns tied up in many petty rules. I think that most of the 1991s have done away with the Paper of Extractions, although the customs still seem to prevail even without them being written down. The Prioress is the main influence on how the Rule and Constitutions are kept and how petty or flexible (or petty) the little rules and customs were.

Teresa certainly did not want her nuns talking about food that was served at table though (it's in her constitutions) or about their health generally (Way of Perfection). She had very practical reasons for this so these really aren't unreasonable rules. The whole point of monastic life is to stop thinking of oneself all the time, so limiting conversations that focus on one's preferences or state of mind and health, just help out a little.

What would be nice to see in Carmel however, is more of the "joy" of God that one sees often in Franciscans. Although the "Dark Night" and aridity are generally more emphasized in Carmel, there is no reason to focus on these temporary states exclusively, which some Carmelites seem to do. This comes I think, from what you talk about - the rigidity and oppression, which are not only unnecessary, but which go against the very personality of Teresa herself! And no one could have been more full of the love and joy of God than our Holy Father St John - who has been so seriously misunderstood for so long with so much focus on his writings about purification of the soul before union. Anyone who has read the Living Flame of Love would know that this man was not depressed or in aridity!

I would love to see a Carmel that truly embodied the vitality and life of St Teresa and the spiritual depth of St John and was focused not so much on the rules and regulations, but on the spirit behind these guidelines, so that they were not oppressive. I have to say that none of the Carmels I have lived in seem to be living and breathing this spirit yet, but then perhaps they are all works in progress. And who am I to judge anyway? I am a Carmelite in spirituality and I do love all the traditions, but I am also a child of the Holy Spirit and He likes to have a little room to breathe! OHM would not be pleased with some of the ways that her charism is being expressed these days I think - but once again, that is just my humble opinion.

St Albert's Rule has been translated many ways. Your version is good too: [i]"Balance is the guide to all the virtues"[/i] I have read two other versions.
[i]"See that the bounds of common sense are not exceeded, however, for common sense is the guide of the virtues."
[/i]and
[i]"Let him, however, use discretion, which is the rule of all virtue."[/i]

The point he is trying to make of course is that we need to avoid extremes. His Rule is still appropriate today!

[InHisLove726]

Thank you all for your answers. I think I have a lot to think about and work on before I enter Carmel (if I do). I am a bit of a hypochondriac, but I've gotten better now that I don't have anxiety anymore. I just really do not like being on antidepressants (though I would rather take them than be depressed) because I just didn't feel like myself on them. Now that I am doing well without them, I hope that my general health is getting better. I've even lost weight this past year and feel even better about myself.

For general information and interest, Buffalo is a 1990s Carmel (confirmed by my conversation with Mother yesterday) and is pretty strict in their observance of the rule. I don't have any complaints though because I would be going in voluntarily, not against my will. I think if I gave it all up because of the rigidity and didn't enter, I would always be thinking, "What if I had?" I have to at least try it.

Right now, I'm reading the autobiography of St. Teresa. I haven't gotten very far, so I don't know that much about her past her early life in the cloister.



P.S.--I like to think that St. Therese is the model of how life in Carmel truly is. I think hers was a life that was not all befuddled with love and light, but periods of intense spiritual darkness. It shows me that while Carmel is demanding, the sacrifices are all worth it in the end.

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='InHisLove726' date='03 October 2009 - 04:39 AM' timestamp='1254501581' post='1976261']


Right now, I'm reading the autobiography of St. Teresa. I haven't gotten very far, so I don't know that much about her past her early life in the cloister.



P.S.--I like to think that St. Therese is the model of how life in Carmel truly is. I think hers was a life that was not all befuddled with love and light, but periods of intense spiritual darkness. It shows me that while Carmel is demanding, the sacrifices are all worth it in the end.
[/quote]

"...not all befuddled with love and light..." I just needed to comment here because this idea of suffering is one of the things that sometimes gets unbalanced attention in Carmel and why I made that comment about Carmelites needing a little more of the joy of the Franciscans. Suffering in and of itself is worthless. It is the goal of transforming union that makes the suffering have any meaning at all, when we unite our suffering to that of Christ on the Cross in order to experience with Him the glory of His Resurrection and Ascension. The Cross itself would be meaningless unless Jesus had risen from the dead and been glorified.

It is St Therese's cries of "Oh how I love Him!" that enable her suffering to make any sense. Her life was full of great physical suffering and periods of spiritual darkness, but it was also full of great peace and trust in God's goodness (that's why she felt safe to fall asleep in meditation!). God only leads through darkness, those whom He holds very close.

So while we accept the Cross and suffering, we don't seek them for their own sake and we certainly don't see them as any kind of goal. The ultimate goal is perfect union with the Triune God, and that union brings with it an interior joy and peace beyond all comprehension -- hence St John's LF of L and St Teresa's Interior Castle (7th Mansion). Let's just keep the goal in mind here as well as the sacrifices

I just had to edit to add this point -- who can look at Father Cantalamessa's shining face and not say that God is "love and light"? Even St Teresa said she wanted to be saved from sad faced saints! If St Therese hadn't been full of love and light herself, then who would be attracted to her?

Edited October 2, 2009 by nunsense

[InHisLove726]

[quote name='nunsense' date='02 October 2009 - 01:00 PM' timestamp='1254502825' post='1976269']
"...not all befuddled with love and light..." I just needed to comment here because this idea of suffering is one of the things that sometimes gets unbalanced attention in Carmel and why I made that comment about Carmelites needing a little more of the joy of the Franciscans. Suffering in and of itself is worthless. It is the goal of transforming union that makes the suffering have any meaning at all, when we unite our suffering to that of Christ on the Cross in order to experience with Him the glory of His Resurrection and Ascension. The Cross itself would be meaningless unless Jesus had risen from the dead and been glorified.

It is St Therese's cries of "Oh how I love Him!" that enable her suffering to make any sense. Her life was full of great physical suffering and periods of spiritual darkness, but it was also full of great peace and trust in God's goodness (that's why she felt safe to fall asleep in meditation!). God only leads through darkness, those whom He holds very close.

So while we accept the Cross and suffering, we don't seek them for their own sake and we certainly don't see them as any kind of goal. The ultimate goal is perfect union with the Triune God, and that union brings with it an interior joy and peace beyond all comprehension -- hence St John's LF of L and St Teresa's Interior Castle (7th Mansion). Let's just keep the goal in mind here as well as the sacrifices

I just had to edit to add this point -- who can look at Father Cantalamessa's shining face and not say that God is "love and light"? Even St Teresa said she wanted to be saved from sad faced saints! If St Therese hadn't been full of love and light herself, then who would be attracted to her?
[/quote]

Oh, I agree. I don't think that Carmel is all about sacrifices, but is very beautiful too. I read St. Teresa's book, "The Interior Castle," and it helped me to understand that the spiritual trials are balanced well with God's graces and love. I believe my favorite mysteries are the Sacred Heart and the Divine Mercy because they both show us how much God loves us that He sent His only Son (John 3:16) that we might have life and have it in abundance. (John 10:10b) I believe Carmel to be a place where love and trial live together, and that if someone truly has a vocation to Carmel, they will experience both.

I agree that St. Therese's story can be too romanticized. I read that several excerpts of her book were left out by editing, and I read some of the edited parts. She was so trusting in the Lord, that although she had suicidal thoughts in her last months, she kept hanging on because she loved God so much and knew this was a loving sacrifice that she could make to Our Lord to show Him her love.

[InHisLove726]

I had to post these inspiring quotes here:

"A Carmelite is a soul who has gazed on the Crucified One: who has seen Him offering Himself as a Victim to His Father for souls and, recollecting herself in this great vision of the charity of Christ, has understood the passionate love of His soul, and has wanted to give herself as He did."--Bl. Elizabeth of the Trinity

"Without love, deeds, even the most brilliant, count as nothing."--St. Therese

"A heart given to God loses none of its natural tenderness. On the contrary, the more pure and divine it becomes, the more such tenderness increases."--St. Therese

[Indwelling Trinity]

This particular saying of Blessed Elizabeth has been the forming focus of my own spirituality as a Carmelite since I began my journey in Carmel almsot 25 years ago. Immediatly after reading this I knew I had found my home in Carmel. Carmel in its mystical yet deeply Incarnational focus has become my source of life, my way to Jesus. To follow Him from the manger of Bethlehem to the cross on Calvary has become the leit motif of my life! I cannot look left or right at other communities because I know That I have found my home . I am speaking not so much of the physical Carmel but the Carmelite hermitage I continually carry in my heart .

Thank you for posting this saying.

Tenderly,

Indwelling Trinity

Edited October 2, 2009 by Indwelling Trinity