Health And Cloistered Life

[InHisLove726]

Dear friends,

The personal health of nuns has been on my mind a lot lately, concerning the vegetarian diet that most (if not all) cloistered nuns consume and how they maintain good health. Through personal experience, I know that a vegetarian diet is very difficult for those who cannot synthesize Vitamin B12 from strictly vegetables, fruits, and legumes. There is just not enough B12 to keep the level up in the human body. I tried vegetarianism before (I was even a strict vegan for a while during my animal rights craze), and I always found myself fatigued because my vitamin level was so low. I went back to consuming meat (when I wised up ) and got better.

However, since I am discerning the cloistered life, I know I will eventually have to go back to eating a mostly vegetarian diet complimented sometimes by fish and other seafood. The question arose in my mind about the vitamin intake of cloistered nuns and I wanted to know if all nuns take a multivitamin each day? I know meat is allowed for those who have health issues, but for someone like me who can live on a vegetarian diet with a multivitamin supplement, I don't think that would be an issue.

I read on one of Laudem's old posts that Kirk Edge Carmel does take multivitamins each day. I believe that good health in body contributes highly to good health in mind and spirit, so taking a multivitamin to supplement is a great idea. Do all cloisters participate in this practice?

Your thoughts are welcomed and appreciated.

[AccountDeleted]

Actually Kirk Edge nuns do not take multivitamin tablets as a community. Individual nuns take vitamins and/or minerals according to their own personal needs in consulation with the doctor, who visits their monastery about every six weeks (any sister can ask to see the doctor when she comes). The older sisters (over 65) usually took a calcium supplement but there were no "across the board" supplements for everyone.

As for the vegetarian diet, the doctor didn't seem to think that anything was lacking (I asked her myself about whether I needed to take calcium at my age) since the nuns ate a well balanced assortment of food, including nuts, beans, soybean products (fake meats), coagulated milk, yoghurt, and fish - which is very healthy. Personally I was a vegetarian for over 20 years - long before the convent, and I never suffered any ill effects from it because I kept a good balance of healthy foods! Many Asian countries have very little meat in their diets - and rely heavily on fish - and they are often healthier than the heavy meat-eating Western world.

Carmelite nuns have been living without meat for hundreds of years (to very ripe old ages as well), so if it was a health issue for someone, I think it would be a purely individual thing that the postulant should discuss with the Prioress, who could ask the doctor if supplements or the eating of meat was required for that person. The Rule states that meat may be eaten for health reasons, and it also says that "...common sense is the guide to the virtues."

[InHisLove726]

Thank you for your reply, nunsense. I spoke to Mother Miriam who is Prioress at the Carmel in Buffalo, NY today and this is one of the questions I had planned to ask her but we were crunched for time since she and the nuns were preparing to celebrate the feast day of St. Therese. I plan to ask her the next time I talk to her what the practice is for her monastery since I'm sure it varies a little from one to another, like most practices.

I recently discovered that I have trouble with both Vitamin B12 and D after tests were done by my doctor, who told me that I will most likely have to supplement both in a Vitamin for the rest of my life. Plus, I'm at a risk for osteoporosis (both sides of my family are genetically disposed to it), so Calcium will have to be monitored closely.

I doubt that either of these facts will bar me from pursuing religious life, it's just a matter of common sense in how they will be dealt with.

God bless.

[Digitaldame]

[quote name='InHisLove726' date='02 October 2009 - 05:09 AM' timestamp='1254452976' post='1976056']
Thank you for your reply, nunsense. I spoke to Mother Miriam who is Prioress at the Carmel in Buffalo, NY today and this is one of the questions I had planned to ask her but we were crunched for time since she and the nuns were preparing to celebrate the feast day of St. Therese. I plan to ask her the next time I talk to her what the practice is for her monastery since I'm sure it varies a little from one to another, like most practices.

I recently discovered that I have trouble with both Vitamin B12 and D after tests were done by my doctor, who told me that I will most likely have to supplement both in a Vitamin for the rest of my life. Plus, I'm at a risk for osteoporosis (both sides of my family are genetically disposed to it), so Calcium will have to be monitored closely.

I doubt that either of these facts will bar me from pursuing religious life, it's just a matter of common sense in how they will be dealt with.

God bless.
[/quote]

You will have to ask whichever community you are interested in as practice varies, even within the same Order. Do bear in mind, however, that no community wants its members to be ill or even below par! One small caution I would add is that when other things are taken away, it is recognized that we can concentrate on our own health a little "unhealthily" so honesty and commonsense are key. Good luck.

[HisChildForever]

I can't speak for religious communities or anything, but I've been a vegetarian (no fish) for over seven years and have had no problems. No vitamins either.

[InHisLove726]

[quote name='Digitaldame' date='02 October 2009 - 12:50 AM' timestamp='1254459022' post='1976093']
You will have to ask whichever community you are interested in as practice varies, even within the same Order. Do bear in mind, however, that no community wants its members to be ill or even below par! One small caution I would add is that when other things are taken away, it is recognized that we can concentrate on our own health a little "unhealthily" so honesty and commonsense are key. Good luck.
[/quote]

Mother has been very good at answering my questions so far and has been very patient with me. Even if I don't enter this particular monastery, I will treasure the time I got to know her very much. She's definitely an angel.

As for the honesty and common sense thing, don't worry about that. I will talk to her about it the next time I call. God bless.

[InHisLove726]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='02 October 2009 - 12:53 AM' timestamp='1254459204' post='1976096']
I can't speak for religious communities or anything, but I've been a vegetarian (no fish) for over seven years and have had no problems. No vitamins either.
[/quote]

I was one for about 2 years until I gave it up because, in Florida (the part I live in, at least) didn't have very many options at the time for meatless diets. Now, we have several natural food stores. However, being unemployed makes it difficult to afford the stuff, so I continue to eat meat. If I am ever accepted to a monastery, I will be going meatless for a few months beforehand just to get used to the life.

[Indwelling Trinity]

Dear In His Love:

Having spent a number of years in Carmel, i have found their diet even during lent to be one of the most balanced I have ever seen.

Cobalamin, the active ingredient in B-12 it not formulated in either plants or meat. It is absorbed by plants and meat from the bacteria and yeasts found in the soil they grow in or vegetables they eat, for animals.

In Carmel as you know , we fast from the Feast of the Exaltation of the Cross until Easter. During the lesser lent from September until ash Wednesday we do have at least three times a week fish, coagulated milk, milk or eggs. Fish especially snapper, trout, salmon and eggs that are not hard boiled are almost at the top of the list for B-12 content. Red meat and chicken come much lower on the list with the exception of liver, kidney,gizzards and the like. Legumes are very high in B-12.

One thing that many do not know is that the human body is very adept at storing B-12 for periods as long as twenty years. This is based on newer research. So practically speaking, the times of only veggie fasting should not be an issue. Vegetarian diets are best when the veggies are either raw or part cooked.

So knowing the Carmelite diet in the strict Carmels, actually there should be no problem in maintaining B-12 levels. In My Carmel we made it a point to have either fish,C-h-e-e=s-e, milk or eggs during non fast seasons along with two vegetables and a carbohydrate. For dessert we had a piece of fruit which is also high in B-12. So all in all I found the diet to be very balanced from a medical/nutritional standpoint.

If you are suffering from deficiency of this vitamin I would look for other culprits. a piece of red meat is usually not the solution. What you may have is a malabsorption syndrome
of some kind among other possibilities too complicated to go into.

I wish i could give you an exhaustive list of reasons but it is too complicated for an email.

You might want to look into things like chronic fatigue. sleep disorders, underlying diseases or any medications you might be taking. Also smoking and alcohol deletes B-12 in the body.

I would also not that fasting coupled with the short sleep hours of Carmel could jointly leave one feeling weak.

Lastly, which i hate to even mention, just the stress of maybe not having a vocation to the particular lifestyle will bring on theses symptoms. I do Not mean to rain on your parade by any means. But In my years in religious life i have seen many who having left looking like a wet rag, spring back into life in a matter of months.

I myself have to take B-12 shots because of MS so i have researched this extensively.

I hope this helps a little.

Tenderly,

Sister Emmanuel

Edited October 2, 2009 by Indwelling Trinity

[Indwelling Trinity]

Dear In His Love:

Having spent a number of years in Carmel, i have found their diet even during lent to be one of the most balanced I have ever seen.

Cobalamin, the active ingredient in B-12 it not formulated in either plants or meat. It is absorbed by plants and meat from the bacteria and yeasts found in the soil they grow in or vegetables they eat, for animals.

In Carmel as you know , we fast from the Feast of the Exaltation of the Cross until Easter. During the lesser lent from September until ash Wednesday we do have at least three times a week fish chees milk or eggs. Fish especially snapper, trout, salmon and eggs that are not hard boiled are almost at the top of the list for B-12 content. Red meat and chicken come much lower on the list with the exception of liver, kidney,gizzards and the like. Legumes are very high in B-12.

One thing that many do not know is that the human body is very adept at storing B-12 for periods as long as twenty years. This is based on newer research. So practically speaking, the times of only veggie fasting should not be an issue. Vegetarian diets are best when the veggies are either raw or part cooked.

So knowing the Carmelite diet in the strict Carmels, actually there should be no problem in maintaining B-12 levels. In My Carmel we made it a point to have either fish, coagulated milk, milk or eggs daily during non fast seasons along with two vegetables and a carbohydrate. For dessert we had a piece of fruit which is also high in B-12. during the small lent, we just ate smaller portions at collation and breakfast. Collation usually was comprised either of leftovers from dinner or a bowl of soup and a piece of bread. On Fridays during both lenten seasons we ate just bread and water.

So all in all I found the diet to be very balanced from a medical/nutritional standpoint.

If you are suffering from deficiency of this vitamin I would look for other culprits. a piece of red meat is usually not the solution. What you may have is a malabsorption syndrome
of some kind among other possibilities too complicated to go into.

I wish i could give you an exhaustive list of reasons but it is too complicated for an email.

You might want to look into things like chronic fatigue. sleep disorders, underlying diseases or any medications you might be taking. Also smoking and alcohol deletes B-12 in the body.

I would also note that fasting coupled with the short sleep hours of Carmel could jointly leave one feeling weak.

Lastly, which i hate to even mention, just the stress of maybe not having a vocation to the particular lifestyle will bring on theses symptoms. I do Not mean to rain on your parade by any means. But In my years in religious life i have seen many who having left looking like a wet rag, spring back into life in a matter of months.

I myself have to take B-12 shots because of MS so i have researched this extensively.

I hope this helps a little.

Tenderly,

Indwelling Trinity

Edited October 2, 2009 by Indwelling Trinity

[Indwelling Trinity]

Dear Friends sorry for the repeat post, but again someone is playing with the editor and keep entering another word for C-h-e-e-s-e.

I find this joke frustrating as we are talking about serious topics. I wish whoever is doing this would in charity desist from such games.

Indwelling Trinity

Edited October 2, 2009 by Indwelling Trinity

[InHisLove726]

Indwelling Trinity,
Thank you for your comprehensive answer! I wonder if the antidepressant therapy I was on had anything to do with the fact that I was always fatigued. I'll have to look into it. Plus, in the past, I'll admit that my diet was far from being "balanced." I was a junk food lover, and used to indulge on chips and chocolate. I've gotten much better about my eating habits (though I still have weaknesses ) and I'm not as run down as before. I did start taking a multivitamin for general health, and that has helped.

I am willing to try the vegetarian diet again because I think I would seriously kick myself if I didn't at least try to live the life of a cloistered contemplative since I am so attracted to it. Of course, I still have much discerning to do, so I'm not rushing anything right now.

God bless!

Edit: I just did some research, and it appears that the antidepressant I was on does cause fatigue. It may not be the reason, but it is a definite possibility.

Edited October 2, 2009 by InHisLove726

[Indwelling Trinity]

Dear In His Love:

In response to you mention of antidepressant drugs the answer is yes. Some medications such as prozac for example have a very long half life and can be detected in the body for over six months.

Also your mention of junk food which is usually high in carbohydrates could cause fatigue. When one take large amounts of carbohydrates they cause a high or quick energy in the body. However the body sensing the high sugar content trigger the body to secrete larger amounts of insulin to store the excess sugars. This Bolus (large amount) of insulin will result in later fatigue as sugar levels rapidly drop. The person again feels hungry and again heads for the carbs causing a vicious cycle. An easy way to gain and maintain energy is to eat either a piece of c-h-e-e-s-e or a little peanut butter may be with a tiny bit of honey on a few crackers. This will slowly raise your sugar levels, assuage your yearning or hunger and not cause the extreme insulin reactions in your body. The reason being that proteins are broken down at a much slower and predictable rate, allowing you to feel energized and satiated for a much longer period of time.

Hope this helps.

Tenderly,

Indwelling Trinity

Edited October 2, 2009 by Indwelling Trinity

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Indwelling Trinity' date='02 October 2009 - 02:50 AM' timestamp='1254466217' post='1976120']
Dear In His Love:

Having spent a number of years in Carmel, i have found their diet even during lent to be one of the most balanced I have ever seen.

Cobalamin, the active ingredient in B-12 it not formulated in either plants or meat. It is absorbed by plants and meat from the bacteria and yeasts found in the soil they grow in or vegetables they eat, for animals.

In Carmel as you know , we fast from the Feast of the Exaltation of the Cross until Easter. During the lesser lent from September until ash Wednesday we do have at least three times a week fish chees milk or eggs. Fish especially snapper, trout, salmon and eggs that are not hard boiled are almost at the top of the list for B-12 content. Red meat and chicken come much lower on the list with the exception of liver, kidney,gizzards and the like. Legumes are very high in B-12.

One thing that many do not know is that the human body is very adept at storing B-12 for periods as long as twenty years. This is based on newer research. So practically speaking, the times of only veggie fasting should not be an issue. Vegetarian diets are best when the veggies are either raw or part cooked.

So knowing the Carmelite diet in the strict Carmels, actually there should be no problem in maintaining B-12 levels. In My Carmel we made it a point to have either fish, coagulated milk, milk or eggs daily during non fast seasons along with two vegetables and a carbohydrate. For dessert we had a piece of fruit which is also high in B-12. during the small lent, we just ate smaller portions at collation and breakfast. Collation usually was comprised either of leftovers from dinner or a bowl of soup and a piece of bread. On Fridays during both lenten seasons we ate just bread and water.

So all in all I found the diet to be very balanced from a medical/nutritional standpoint.

If you are suffering from deficiency of this vitamin I would look for other culprits. a piece of red meat is usually not the solution. What you may have is a malabsorption syndrome
of some kind among other possibilities too complicated to go into.

I wish i could give you an exhaustive list of reasons but it is too complicated for an email.

You might want to look into things like chronic fatigue. sleep disorders, underlying diseases or any medications you might be taking. Also smoking and alcohol deletes B-12 in the body.

I would also note that fasting coupled with the short sleep hours of Carmel could jointly leave one feeling weak.

Lastly, which i hate to even mention, just the stress of maybe not having a vocation to the particular lifestyle will bring on theses symptoms. I do Not mean to rain on your parade by any means. But In my years in religious life i have seen many who having left looking like a wet rag, spring back into life in a matter of months.

I myself have to take B-12 shots because of MS so i have researched this extensively.

I hope this helps a little.

Tenderly,

Indwelling Trinity
[/quote]
My understanding is that conventional produce is typically grown in "dead" soil and the produce is often treated in various ways (sprays, waxes, irradiation, etc) so is robbed of any residual metabolically active B12 which may have otherwise been present. Do you know anything about this? I would like to grow all of my own food in the future and have been curious about B12 as well. I have considered bird eggs (either chicken or quail) and certain fish (which could be cultivated via micro scale fish farming or captured in the wild) as occasional treats that would provide sufficient B12 but I have encountered so much conflicting information as to the actual levels of B12 that are required for health. Thanks!

[AccountDeleted]

One thing to think about seriously is the general condition of your health prior to entering a cloistered community. The life is not physically easy, although it might sound as if all the nuns do is sit in prayer or walk serenely through cloisters! In Carmel, for example, the usual rising time is 5.30am and lights out can be at 10pm or 11pm, depending on the community. Some cloistered communities still rise at midnight, and others get up at 4.30am for Matins. This is a 16 hour plus day!

During the day, in addition to the recitation of the Office, there is hard physical work to be done, some of it to maintain the monastery and other kinds of work for income - all this in a very heavy and hot habit (if the traditional one is being worn). The entire day is structured and every moment accounted for, even the time alloted for spiritual reading and/or study (such as the novitiate) and is controlled by the bells. At WV we had one half hour of rest at 1pm and at both Edmonton and Kirk Edge we had one hour from 1pm-2pm. Apart from that rest time, there is no unstructured time in Carmel.

There is no eating or drinking between meals without permission (at Kirk Edge this prohibition included water, so I had to ask permission for additional water since I am used to drinking a lot, but WV and Edmonton allowed drinking of water without permission). When you get up at 5.30am and breakfast isn't until after Mass, this can be a long fast! At KE, breakfast is two slices of (untoasted) bread with butter (except on Fridays - no diary products) and one cup of tea (no second cup) - this was around 8.30am during the week and 9am on Sundays since Mass usually went for an hour then. That's three hours after waking up! At WV we had cereal and hot milk with one small piece of bread, but we could have a second cup of tea (coffee was a treat for solemnities only)! Then "dinner" (lunch to Americans) was around 11.20am - quite a large meal because "supper" (US dinner) wasn't until 6.15pm (that's nearly 7 hours between dinner and supper). There is one cup of tea drunk standing up in front of the refectory table at 3pm, but no snacks (like cookies) unless it was a special occasion.

So what you are looking at here is a life that requires stamina and strength -- all without the little extras that we treat ourselves to - like sleeping in or eating a snack to increase energy. Anyone who is preoccupied with their health will have a very difficult time of it. St Teresa was very adamant that her nuns not focus on their health, because she said that women generally have a tendency to obsess about it (her opinion) so during recreation, this is one of the topics that is not allowed to be discussed in Carmel (any health related issues), along with food preferences or dreams. That doesn't mean that health is ignored. But a nun is only allowed to discuss her health with the Prioress who will see that anything that needs attention is given attention. Apart from that, one is expected to minimise health concerns as much as possible. When a sister would have a terrible cold, I would think that she should go to bed, but I never saw one who did - they always soldiered on through the Office while sneezing, coughing and blowing their noses! I assume they were taking medication but I never asked of course.

I guess my point is that when considering cloistered life, one should make sure that they are in good health prior to entering. As one sister said to me at WV, you do realize that you are never going to sleep in again? This isn't quite true, because Carmel does have what they call "second call" for special circumstances, but at WV this amounted to an extra half hour in the morning, and at Kirk Edge, it was an extra hour. But try to sleep in when you have bells ringing in your ears, and see if that extra half hour or hour really makes a diifference -

So, make sure you are in good health, then try to forget everything related to your health entirely!

[Indwelling Trinity]

Dear LD:

Yes your assessment is right. naturally grown vegetables as well as free range chicken and beef contain much more nutrients that those commercially grown. The same goes for fish.. wild caught fish is much more nutricious than pond bred spawned fish.

So even though you tomatoes and fruits may have little pock marks grown naturally, they are actually much better for you.

Indwelling Trinity

Edited October 2, 2009 by Indwelling Trinity