Don't Act As If Medjugorje Visions Happened:

[GraceUk]

I am new on this forum and have been lurking for ages but I'll come in with a comment on this. I remember back in the late 60's when I was a teenager I read a pamphlet on Padre Pio and I believed then he was very genuine and saintly. I have always been very sceptical about Medjugorje.

[Jaime]

[quote name='GraceUk' date='01 October 2009 - 12:11 PM' timestamp='1254413510' post='1975592']
I am new on this forum and have been lurking for ages but I'll come in with a comment on this. I remember back in the late 60's when I was a teenager I read a pamphlet on Padre Pio and I believed then he was very genuine and saintly. I have always been very sceptical about Medjugorje.
[/quote]

Welcome out of the lurking shadows! We can always use more grace around these parts.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='thessalonian' date='01 October 2009 - 10:46 AM' timestamp='1254412002' post='1975575']
We do not have to wait until the vatican approves to honor our Holy Mother with prayers at a location. Even if the picture of our lady in the window is some natural phenomena or just the imagination of those who view it, that does not mean that their prayers cannot be from the heart to the Blessed Mother. The same is true of the "apparitions" at Medjugoire. I've met one of the visionaries and been present when he has had his alleged vision and heard him speak. I've not been to Medjugorie and don't think I need to though I would like to. I tend to believe that the visions have occurred but defer to the Bishop to make decisions for his diocese in which these things are allegedly taking place. I know of people who have gone there whom I trust and have had their rosaries turned gold as well. I've seen the rosaries. Now does this even prove the apparitions true? No. It is not proof. Further, the Vatican has not spoken one way or another on the apparitions and so I the Bishop reporting some position as if it favors his view, of the Vatican's is a bit misleading. But again it is up to him to guide his flock in his diocese. He does not have jurasdiction in Minneapolis St. Paul and my bishop has not forbid pilgrimages to these places. If one day it is proven to be all a hoax or the Vatican comes out against it, life will go on just fine for me in my Catholic faith. I do not need apparations any more than I would need to see Paul's hankerchief and touch it. (acts 19). But these things are an aid to my faith and focusing my prayers.
[/quote]
You said he cannot forbid pilgrimages, but isn't it true that he has forbade Masses to be said at the site?

[Slappo]

[quote name='thessalonian' date='01 October 2009 - 08:46 AM' timestamp='1254412002' post='1975575']
He does not have jurasdiction in Minneapolis St. Paul and my bishop has not forbid pilgrimages to these places.
[/quote]

He does, however, have jurisdiction over HIS diocese, which Medjugorie is in. So even though your bishop has not forbid anything, this bishop has, and the pilgrimage site is under his jurisdiction.

As for formal pilgrimages, that is, public pilgrimages, those are forbid by the Church Universal for an unapproved vision as it implies recognition by the Universal Church.

You may make private pilgrimages to Medjugorie, which haven't been forbidden by the Local Ordinary anyways, but there may be no public pilgrimages such as ones lead by Catholic Universities, parishes, dioceses, religious orders, etc.

Edited October 1, 2009 by Slappo

[mommas_boy]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='01 October 2009 - 01:09 PM' timestamp='1254416956' post='1975641']
You said he cannot forbid pilgrimages, but isn't it true that he has forbade Masses to be said at the site?
[/quote]

Well, back in January/December when I was there, Masses were being said there. Knowing Mirjana and her translator, Miki, pretty well personally (at least, as well as a passing pilgrim who lived in Mirjana's house for 10 days can ...), I know that there was a BIG emphasis on making sure to correct popular mistakes of the pilgrims who came. There is a sort of unspoken culture amongst the visionaries and those who work with them to cross every "t" and dot every "i". Many of the pilgrim's on the other hand ... well, they can get swept up sensationalism, and turn to disobedience. My guess is that if the bishop were to forbid masses there, then no masses would be offered there.

I can't remember what it was, but there was some sort of specific rule where the bishop did prevent some sort of liturgical celebration to be offered in some fashion. Miki and Mirjana both explained the situation, and said that because of that, we wouldn't be doing it. Or something like that. Yes, there is a culture of obedience there, at least amongst those whose business is pursuing ratification by the Church. The pilgrims ... are often harder to control.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='mommas_boy' date='01 October 2009 - 05:22 PM' timestamp='1254435747' post='1975863']
Well, back in January/December when I was there, Masses were being said there. Knowing Mirjana and her translator, Miki, pretty well personally (at least, as well as a passing pilgrim who lived in Mirjana's house for 10 days can ...), I know that there was a BIG emphasis on making sure to correct popular mistakes of the pilgrims who came. There is a sort of unspoken culture amongst the visionaries and those who work with them to cross every "t" and dot every "i". Many of the pilgrim's on the other hand ... well, they can get swept up sensationalism, and turn to disobedience. My guess is that if the bishop were to forbid masses there, then no masses would be offered there.

I can't remember what it was, but there was some sort of specific rule where the bishop did prevent some sort of liturgical celebration to be offered in some fashion. Miki and Mirjana both explained the situation, and said that because of that, we wouldn't be doing it. Or something like that. Yes, there is a culture of obedience there, at least amongst those whose business is pursuing ratification by the Church. The pilgrims ... are often harder to control.
[/quote]
I was actually thinking this happened just recently...

Ah, ok. Here's what I was thinking about:
[quote]FORBIDDEN :
- NO more retreats, spiritual exercises, conferences, foreign priests… without permission of the bishop
- NO own or foreign priests may propagate NON-recognized ‘messages’ or ‘apparitions’
- EVERY priest must show his ‘celebret’ before H.Mass
- [b]NO more H.Sacrament or adoration in ‘Oasis of Peace’;[/b] even NO permission to reside in whole diocese [not sure what that last part means]
-[b] NO services in the private church in Bijakovice; it is now closed.[/b]
- NO mentioning of ‘seers’, apparitions, messages’ in parish bulletin;
- NO mentioning of the word ‘sanctuary’ in Medjugorje
- NO mentioning or comment of ‘messages’ or ‘apparitions’ on the 25th of the month via Marija Pavlovic
- NO private ‘apparitions’ of Mirjana Dragicevic in ‘Cenacolo’ of Sr. Elvira
- NO permission for ‘Kraljica Mira’(founder : Tomislav Vlasic) in Medjugorje or in whole diocese
- NO ‘seers’ or others in the church to pray prayers from the ‘apparitions’
- NO intentions during the rosary concerning ‘apparitions’ or ‘messages’
- NO ‘seers’ in or around the church on anniversaries of ‘apparitions’ or ‘messages[/quote]

A specific place that may not now be called a shrine was for the time being shut down by the bishop.[url="http://wdtprs.com/blog/2009/09/medjugorje-news/"]Source[/url] [url="http://www.cbismo.com/"]Original source[/url]

Edited October 1, 2009 by Nihil Obstat

[Resurrexi]

I'm not a big fan of private revelations, especially ones not approved by the Church.

[mommas_boy]

Did some research, here.

[b]- NO services in the private church in Bijakovice; it is now closed.[/b]

Having been there, I'm familiar with the "private chapel" in Bijakovice. That was one that Miki (Mirjana's translator) pointed out, mentioning how and why it was closed by the Bishop. Basically, a bunch of pilgrims decided that they were going to buy up some land and build their own private chapel at the foot of "Podbrdo" -- the hill that the first apparition supposedly happened on. But, they didn't realize that they have to go through all of the proper channels, and get it approved first. So, they built it out of misguided devotion, and when it was done, the pilgrims were informed that doing so without permission of the Bishop was improper (or is it Canonically illegal, even?) Miki was sure to mention that this sort of thing is bad. [b]EDIT: This isn't the main Church in the Medjugorje area. What's at issue is the fact that this "church" was not built with permission. A priest may still say Mass at St. James'.[/b]

[b]- NO more H.Sacrament or adoration in ‘Oasis of Peace’; even NO permission to reside in whole diocese [not sure what that last part means][/b]

This was a lay "community" that had proclaimed itself as a "community" without the bishop's permission to organize as a "community". Again, more misguided, fervent pilgrims. [url="http://te-deum.blogspot.com/2009/04/letter-from-bishop-peric-medjugorje-to_03.html"]Here is a letter[/url] from Bishop Peric on the matter. It does a good job of summing up what the issue is. [b]EDIT: Again, the issue here is one of permission to organize a community, not whether or not Adoration may be offered. Adoration may still be offered at St. James' Parish.[/b]

[b]- NO more retreats, spiritual exercises, conferences, foreign priests… without permission of the bishop[/b]

This one is the most damning, because it seems to prohibit pilgrimages entirely.

[b]- NO own or foreign priests may propagate NON-recognized ‘messages’ or ‘apparitions’[/b]

That's proper. Agreed.

[b]- EVERY priest must show his ‘celebret’ before H.Mass[/b]

Makes sense.

[b]- NO mentioning of ‘seers’, apparitions, messages’ in parish bulletin;
- NO mentioning of the word ‘sanctuary’ in Medjugorje
- NO mentioning or comment of ‘messages’ or ‘apparitions’ on the 25th of the month via Marija Pavlovic
- NO ‘seers’ or others in the church to pray prayers from the ‘apparitions’
- NO intentions during the rosary concerning ‘apparitions’ or ‘messages’
[/b]

All proper.

[b]- NO private ‘apparitions’ of Mirjana Dragicevic in ‘Cenacolo’ of Sr. Elvira[/b]

If I remember correctly, Cenacolo is a religious community that HAS permission to operate in the Diocese of Mostar. Thus, having an "apparition" here would create a sense of impropriety. Makes sense.

The reason was the "apparitions" were held in Cenacolo was because many pilgrims wanted to attend, they couldn't do it in St. James' Church for the same reason, and they had a rather large room there.

[b]- NO permission for ‘Kraljica Mira’(founder : Tomislav Vlasic) in Medjugorje or in whole diocese[/b]

Not sure what this is about. The term "Kraljica Mira" seems to be "Queen of Peace". I know that the image associated with Mary in Medjugorje is called "the Queen of Peace". Is it that Mary should not be venerated under that title until the Church has pronounced judgement on Medjugorje's authenticity? But the word "founder" creates the sense that this is also the name of a community. Could you please clarify?

[b]- NO ‘seers’ in or around the church on anniversaries of ‘apparitions’ or ‘messages[/b]

This makes sense, but seems difficult when considering that these "seers" are people as well who have full rights to the Sacraments (that's not the correct word; no one has a "right" to the Sacraments). But then again, the Bishop has a responsibility to protect his flock from what he perceives to be a threat to their sanctity, and so that might be reason enough.

Edited October 1, 2009 by mommas_boy

[mommas_boy]

Basically, my sense is this:

(1) Actions of pilgrims are directed by a misguided devotion, and usually not disobedience. When these actions step out of bounds, the Bishop is right to correct them and admonish them. Many pilgrims, however, will often be disobedient.
(2) In my experience, the visionaries and those who work with them most closely aren't trying to be disobedient (a), but simply don't know what the right way is to go about things. Mirjana mentioned something to this extent, and that it has been a learning process since then to make sure that they don't make more mistakes in the future.

(a) I know that Fr. Vlasic has been very disobedient, though. I don't know what the full story is on him.

[Selah]

Now here's my question. Why would the Church ban the Divine Mercy Diary or claim that Fatima and Lourdes was the work of the devil when it was not? And, if these were not the work of the devil, but rather of God, why then should we call the Medjugorje apparitions fake? Wouldn't it be safer to say, "we don't know"? I just don't like the idea of calling something that may be the Mother of God "demonic". I'm not trying to instigate, I really want to know.

Edited October 1, 2009 by Selah

[lilac_angel]

[quote name='dominicansoul' date='01 October 2009 - 08:40 AM' timestamp='1254400835' post='1975525']
I dont' think so...I just assume that if the messages of Medjugorje are so important and need to be taken seriously, Our Lady would do what she needs to make sure it gets approved in a fairly short amount of time (as in Lourdes and Fatima...)
[/quote]

From what I recall, her (assuming it was Mary) messages repeated similar things over and over, assuring the people she was there, promoting prayer, fasting, and conversion of hearts. They weren't any new insights or revelations that necessary needed to be published, stamped, sealed, and packaged up neatly. The longer they went on, the more people heard of them - including people outside of the Church, importantly. Those people outside the Church aren't going to be any more likely to flock to a Catholic-approved apparition, especially if it happened so quickly that they never caught wind of it; they don't care about what the church approves. If it was Mary, perhaps she was concerned about winning converts rather than quickly having something approved to preach to the choir. *shrugs*

And to Selah, I personally think it is better - and the more humble, honest route - to simply say "we don't know" rather than saying every incident that occurred there was from the devil or false.

Edited October 2, 2009 by lilac_angel

[lilac_angel]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='01 October 2009 - 06:32 PM' timestamp='1254436334' post='1975872']
I'm not a big fan of private revelations, especially ones not approved by the Church.
[/quote]

Any reason why you're not a big fan of the approved ones? I think they can be a nice supplement to our faith lives. Not essential, for sure, but something to vary it up a little, help us reflect on things in a way we normally wouldn't, and inspire.

Edited October 2, 2009 by lilac_angel

[Jaime]

[quote name='dominicansoul' date='01 October 2009 - 08:40 AM' timestamp='1254400835' post='1975525']
I dont' think so...I just assume that if the messages of Medjugorje are so important and need to be taken seriously, Our Lady would do what she needs to make sure it gets approved in a fairly short amount of time (as in Lourdes and Fatima...)
[/quote]

An apparition will not be approved until AFTER they cease.

[Laudate_Dominum]

Don't tell me what I can't do!

[InHisLove726]

[quote name='lilac_angel' date='02 October 2009 - 03:09 AM' timestamp='1254467378' post='1976121']
And to Selah, I personally think it is better - and the more humble, honest route - to simply say "we don't know" rather than saying every incident that occurred there was from the devil or false.
[/quote]


I agree with you on this. I met a girl last year at a Carmelite retreat who was adamant that Medjugorje was false and was from the devil. I really wonder how she claims to know this. I found her on another Catholic site and this is her signature:

[quote]In this age of many miraculous yet false apparitions (and movements), avoid any popular, unapproved voice/vision (or schizm) which suggests otherwise. In his pride, satan often imitates the miracles of true apparitions to "out-perform" God.... who Himself said do not watch the sky or seek such signs & wonders, b/c this is how the anti-christ will gain followers, whether he comes tomorrow or in 1,000 years. My advice; just go to mass, receive the sacraments, & walk each day with Christ![/quote]

And her biography says:

[quote]I love God & I'm his gadfly; so beware of Mejugorje/other divisive unapproved "visions" & schizms.[/quote]



I agree that we should not seek such signs, but it appears that the visionaries of Medjugorje (as I understand it) were not looking for signs. I am skeptically neutral on the subject. I don't know if it is bad, but I'm not sure it is good either. I prefer to stick with the already approved apparations--my favorites being Our Lady of Mount Carmel and Our Lady Mediatrix of Graces.

Edited October 2, 2009 by InHisLove726