Resurrexi Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='01 October 2009 - 01:43 PM' timestamp='1254422625' post='1975746'] That would be a good idea. [/quote] I doubt that the CDF will claim to contradict the Council of Florence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' date='01 October 2009 - 12:52 PM' timestamp='1254423175' post='1975761'] I doubt that the CDF will claim to contradict the Council of Florence. [/quote] You will not know until you write to them, but regardless they will explain to you why the heretical nature of Mormon faith prevents the valid celebration of the mystery of baptism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ziggamafu Posted October 2, 2009 Author Share Posted October 2, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='01 October 2009 - 03:06 PM' timestamp='1254423976' post='1975768'] You will not know until you write to them, but regardless they will explain to you why the heretical nature of Mormon faith prevents the valid celebration of the mystery of baptism. [/quote] And the nature of Protestant faith is not heretical? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ziggamafu Posted October 2, 2009 Author Share Posted October 2, 2009 I need to figure out how to act on these concerns of mine. If the liberal position is not correct (or merely not trustworthy) it would seem that a TON of Catholic need conditional baptisms. But if the liberal position is correct, then raising these concerns could be dangerously scandalous. Rock|Me|Hard Place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 [quote name='Ziggamafu' date='02 October 2009 - 07:10 AM' timestamp='1254489035' post='1976180'] And the nature of Protestant faith is not heretical? [/quote] Yes, it is heretical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 [quote name='Ziggamafu' date='02 October 2009 - 07:15 AM' timestamp='1254489330' post='1976182'] I need to figure out how to act on these concerns of mine. If the liberal position is not correct (or merely not trustworthy) it would seem that a TON of Catholic need conditional baptisms. But if the liberal position is correct, then raising these concerns could be dangerously scandalous. Rock|Me|Hard Place. [/quote] You're not really in a position to do anything about the situation. In the East there is the concept of [i]economia[/i], which is sometimes invoked - after a man comes to the Church - in order to supply for any defect in the "mysteries" of the heretics, but I am not sure if that concept exists in the West. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ziggamafu Posted October 2, 2009 Author Share Posted October 2, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='02 October 2009 - 09:33 AM' timestamp='1254490416' post='1976186'] You're not really in a position to do anything about the situation. In the East there is the concept of [i]economia[/i], which is sometimes invoked - after a man comes to the Church - in order to supply for any defect in the "mysteries" of the heretics, but I am not sure if that concept exists in the West. [/quote] I'm really talking about the idea of myself being conditionally baptized and advising as much for my wife and a friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 [quote name='Ziggamafu' date='02 October 2009 - 08:05 AM' timestamp='1254492354' post='1976192'] I'm really talking about the idea of myself being conditionally baptized and advising as much for my wife and a friend. [/quote] I suppose that you can ask for that to be done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ziggamafu Posted October 2, 2009 Author Share Posted October 2, 2009 Well of course I can. But is it wise or even necessary? If I do it then I am binding myself in conscience to advise certain friends and family to do the same. And that could be scandalous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 [quote name='Ziggamafu' date='02 October 2009 - 10:01 AM' timestamp='1254499292' post='1976237'] Well of course I can. But is it wise or even necessary?[/quote] If it allays your own doubts about your Protestant "baptism" it is worthwhile. [quote name='Ziggamafu' date='02 October 2009 - 10:01 AM' timestamp='1254499292' post='1976237'] If I do it then I am binding myself in conscience to advise certain friends and family to do the same. And that could be scandalous.[/quote] No, you are merely binding yourself to telling them about your case, but you really are not in a position of ecclesial authority to advise anyone about the status of the sacraments they have received. Traditionally that is the role of the bishop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 (edited) In case this helps... "Whether, in judging matrimonial cases, baptism conferred in the sects of the Disciples of Christ, the Presbyterians, Congregationalists, Baptists, Methodists, when the necessary matter and form have been used, is to be presumed as invalid because of the lack of the required intention in the minister of doing what the Church does, or what Christ instituted; or whether it is to be presumed as valid unless in a particular case it is proven to the contrary." The reply: In the negative to the first part; in the affirmative to the second." (Response of the Holy Office under Pope Pius XII on 28 December 1949: Denzinger-Schonmetzer 3865) Edited October 2, 2009 by Resurrexi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 Resurrexi, The text you quoted - at least based on Zigga's many posts in this thread - apparently has not helped to remove his doubts, because I have a feeling that he has read the texts you are quoting. Moreover, a quasi-Protestant reliance on a book (in this particular case Denzinger instead of the Bible) evidently is not enough for him, although it may work for you. The solution for Zigga - as I see it - is to consult his bishop (obviously by approaching his parish priest) in order to explain his reasons for doubting the Protestant "baptism" he received, so that an authoritative judgment can be issued. I see nothing wrong with Zigga doing this, and - in fact - it is his right to approach the local bishop for an authoritative decision on the matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='02 October 2009 - 03:47 PM' timestamp='1254516442' post='1976394'] Resurrexi, The text you quoted - at least based on Zigga's many posts in this thread - apparently has not helped to remove his doubts, because I have a feeling that he has read the texts you are quoting. Moreover, a quasi-Protestant reliance on a book (in this particular case Denzinger instead of the Bible) evidently is not enough for him, although it may work for you. The solution for Zigga - as I see it - is to consult his bishop (obviously by approaching his parish priest) in order to explain his reasons for doubting the Protestant "baptism" he received, so that an authoritative judgment can be issued. I see nothing wrong with Zigga doing this, and - in fact - it is his right to approach the local bishop for an authoritative decision on the matter. [/quote] It is so Quasi-Protestant to rely on what the teaching authority of the Church has decided in the past... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' date='02 October 2009 - 02:49 PM' timestamp='1254516591' post='1976398'] It is so Quasi-Protestant to rely on what the teaching authority of the Church has decided in the past... [/quote] No, it is quasi-Protestant to rely on a book (in this case Denzinger), but I wholeheartedly encourage Zigga to approach the proper Church authorities (i.e., the local bishop) so that he can receive an authoritative judgment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='02 October 2009 - 03:52 PM' timestamp='1254516753' post='1976402'] No, it is quasi-Protestant to rely on a book (in this case Denzinger), but I wholeheartedly encourage Zigga to approach the proper Church authorities (i.e., the local bishop) so that he can receive an authoritative judgment. [/quote] Denzinger is merely a collection of magisterial documents. I guess since you constantly reference the writings of the Eastern Fathers, which are conveniently collected in Patrologia Graeca, I could say that you are relying on a book in a quasi-Protestant manner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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