Christopher West Attack?!

[StColette]

This quote from West caught my attention

[quote]Okay. Take a good-hearted couple. If they know their weaknesses, if they know if they were alone together, they would engage in behavior that they shouldn't be engaging in, I will be the first to commend them for not being alone together. Christian, know thyself. But we must not call that virtue.

"Such a couple is continent, but they are not virtuous, in the true sense of the word, in the true Thomistic sense of the wor
[/quote]

I always thought that removing oneself from the near occasion of sin was virtuous, because it is part of the virtue of prudence. At least, that's what I remember from Kreeft's book "Back to Virtue".

I also find this late quote a little confusing

[quote]"Think of it from this perspective: If the only thing that kept you from having sex before marriage was the fact that you didn't have the opportunity, what does that say about the desires of your heart? And then there is a real and present danger of justifying lust within the marriage.[/quote]

Mr. West is giving two different perspectives here. In the first one he is saying that the couple does have the opportunity but keeps themselves out of the situation, but that's not virtue. And then a few sentence later compares it to a couple that didn't have sex before marriage just because they weren't given the opportunity. These are two very different situations and he's making them out to be the same, when in fact they aren't. One couple is practicing prudence/temperance, while the other just isn't faced with that situation because of proximity or whatever.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='eagle_eye222001' date='28 September 2009 - 12:09 PM' timestamp='1254161358' post='1973787']
Okay, I wasn't defending or attacking West or saying anything about how his comments related to the Church. I was merely agreeing with Lil Red that likely more priests oppose West for reasons other then the ones you and others are pointing out.
[/quote]
Let me be clear about something: I am not attacking Mr. West; instead, I am merely saying that his presentations are unorthodox.

[tinytherese]

I'd preferrably start off with reading the original TOTB texts and then check out Christopher West's stuff for myself to form an opinion.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='eagle_eye222001' date='28 September 2009 - 11:51 AM' timestamp='1254160290' post='1973770']
I would agree with this as many more likely oppose West not on what he exactly says, as much as the mere fact he is popularizing TOTB.
[/quote]
+J.M.J.+
yeah, the priest were really ticked when he was the presenter for the diocesan priest gathering a few years ago. they were mad because he promotes things like priestly celibacy, male-only priesthood, birth control is wrong, etc etc.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Lil Red' date='28 September 2009 - 12:35 PM' timestamp='1254162904' post='1973819']
+J.M.J.+
yeah, the priest were really ticked when he was the presenter for the diocesan priest gathering a few years ago. they were mad because he promotes things like priestly celibacy, male-only priesthood, birth control is wrong, etc etc.
[/quote]
Let us not forget that there are also faithful priests who oppose the theological distortions present within Mr. West's presentations.

[eagle_eye222001]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='28 September 2009 - 02:21 PM' timestamp='1254162115' post='1973801']
Let me be clear about something: I am not attacking Mr. West; instead, I am merely saying that his presentations are unorthodox.
[/quote]

Well....we could take up to debate with the dictionary . Anyway that wasn't my point. You say some stuff he says is unorthodox and I am not disagreeing nor agreeing with that. I am merely pointing out that many more disagree with him because he promotes the Church Teaching on contraception, male only priesthood (as pointed out by Lil Red) and not because some things he says are "looking" to be unorthodox.

[quote name='Lil Red' date='28 September 2009 - 02:35 PM' timestamp='1254162904' post='1973819']
+J.M.J.+
yeah, the priest were really ticked when he was the presenter for the diocesan priest gathering a few years ago. they were mad because he promotes things like priestly celibacy, male-only priesthood, birth control is wrong, etc etc.
[/quote]
Wouldn't want to promote that.

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='28 September 2009 - 02:37 PM' timestamp='1254163055' post='1973821']
Let us not forget that there are also faithful priests who oppose the theological distortions present within Mr. West's presentations.
[/quote]

I don't disagree with that. However like it or not, many more likely oppose him because of the orthodoxy he teaches as opposed to the unorthodoxy that "appears" to be coming from him.

The words in quotes are meant to convey that I am not taking a stance on what West is saying to this point as I need to investigate it myself. So if I appear to take a stance in this thread, I'm not. I couldn't immediately think of how to say some stuff in a totally neutral fashion and I am well aware some wording appears to show me defending him.

Edited September 28, 2009 by eagle_eye222001

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='eagle_eye222001' date='28 September 2009 - 12:55 PM' timestamp='1254164141' post='1973839']
I don't disagree with that. However like it or not, many more likely oppose him because of the orthodoxy he teaches as opposed to the unorthodoxy that "appears" to be coming from him.[/quote]
This is an assertion that really cannot be proven. The most that can be said is that dissident and orthodox clergy have come out against Mr. West's presentations on the so-called "theology of the body."

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='28 September 2009 - 12:37 PM' timestamp='1254163055' post='1973821']
Let us not forget that there are also faithful priests who oppose the theological distortions present within Mr. West's presentations.
[/quote]
+J.M.J.+
i'm not disagreeing with that. i'm just saying that there are those who oppose him based on other reasons.

and i'm actually glad that we (as in the Catholic community) are talking about what is in West's presentation, because i never knew that there was anything suspect.

[eagle_eye222001]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='28 September 2009 - 02:59 PM' timestamp='1254164380' post='1973843']
This is an assertion that really cannot be proven. The most that can be said is that dissident and orthodox clergy have come out against Mr. West's presentations on the so-called "theology of the body."
[/quote]

I didn't present it as fact as I used the word "likely" since the priests who were around in the 60s, 70s and even early 80s were ordained in a liberal leaning time of the Church. It's fairly evident the priests of today are generally more conservative than the ones of forty years ago. I mean, we all have seen the misapplication of Vatican II and such.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='eagle_eye222001' date='28 September 2009 - 03:48 PM' timestamp='1254174494' post='1973941']
I didn't present it as fact as I used the word "likely" since the priests who were around in the 60s, 70s and even early 80s were ordained in a liberal leaning time of the Church. It's fairly evident the priests of today are generally more conservative than the ones of forty years ago. I mean, we all have seen the misapplication of Vatican II and such.
[/quote]
But is it "likely"? The answer to that is a matter of opinion.

[jmjtina]

while reading the TOTB, i found it to be extremely beautiful and dignified.

*totally my own opinion*

Reading some of West's work, makes me think of street talk and it loses some of that dignity JP2 gives it. lol, of course West can't do it exactly like the Pope, but the real loss is the comprehension of the beauty and love God has for us.

IMHO, this is the real loss. Most Catholic couples I know who liked West used him as an index for what could I or could not do within a marriage without stopping to think about the whole picture. Granted, not all Catholic couples, but most.

I honestly don't think we should dumb it down. Why not help the laity to understand what it truly means? There seems to be a real hunger for it now. At least in my diocese.

and Jess, I totally agree. I like that we are discussing this.

[eagle_eye222001]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='28 September 2009 - 05:56 PM' timestamp='1254174981' post='1973944']
But is it "likely"? The answer to that is a matter of opinion.
[/quote]

http://www.latimes.com/news/custom/timespoll/la-940221priestpoll,0,2971328.story?page=1


http://www.ewtn.com/library/ISSUES/CONSELIB.TXT

In which case, I say the same to you.


[quote name='Apotheoun' date='28 September 2009 - 12:22 AM' timestamp='1254111767' post='1973576']
This is just my opinion, but I consider Mr. West's theories to be unorthodox.
[/quote]

[Apotheoun]

Yeah, we have both expressed divergent opinions, but if you read the two threads I linked to you can see why I hold the opinion I do about Mr. West's teaching.

Now as far as the other issue is concerned, i.e., whether priests oppose Mr. West for his position on celibacy, etc., that is simply an opinion which cannot be proven because it is based upon a generalization.

[Laudate_Dominum]

WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSST!!!!!!!!

To the last, I grapple with thee; From Hell's heart, I stab at thee; For hate's sake, I spit my last breath at thee!

[i]He piled upon the whale's white hump the sum of all the general rage and hate felt by his whole race from Adam down; and then, as if his chest had been a mortar, he burst his hot heart's shell upon it.[/i]

[Apotheoun]

L_D appears to be suffering from a Star Trek fixation tonight.