Infants And Original Sin

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' date='23 September 2009 - 02:32 PM' timestamp='1253737955' post='1971688']
“Babies dead without baptism go to Limbo, where they do not enjoy God, but neither do they suffer, because, having original sin alone, they do not deserve paradise, but neither do they merit hell or purgatory.” ~1905 Catechism of the Catholic Church
[/quote]
I don't believe in Limbo.

[Selah]

[quote]“Babies dead without baptism go to Limbo, where they do not enjoy God, but neither do they suffer, because, having original sin alone, they do not deserve paradise, but neither do they merit hell or purgatory.” ~1905 Catechism of the Catholic Church[/quote]

Limbo was never a dogma to begin with, so it isn't something I believe in either.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='23 September 2009 - 03:37 PM' timestamp='1253738275' post='1971693']
I don't believe in Limbo.
[/quote]

I support the idea that unbaptized infants go to Limbo.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='23 September 2009 - 03:00 PM' timestamp='1253739607' post='1971716']
I support the idea that unbaptized infants go to Limbo.
[/quote]
You can believe what you like, but I see no reason to believe in Limbo.

[Selah]

I have another question. Do Eastern Catholics then not believe in Original Sin? Or do they call it something else?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Selah' date='23 September 2009 - 03:04 PM' timestamp='1253739841' post='1971718']
I have another question. Do Eastern Catholics then not believe in Original Sin? Or do they call it something else?
[/quote]
We simply understand it differently.

I do not believe that anyone is born sinful or guilty. Adam's sin made him and his descendants mortal, and Christ came primarily to free us from death, and by triumphing over death He secondarily destroyed the personal sins of those who are united to Him in the sacramental life of the Church.

Finally, as far as Adam's sin is concerned, I call it "the" original sin or "the" ancestral sin. It was -- and always will be -- a sin peculiar to Adam, because it was a particular act that he performed, and no one can inherit that particular action.

Edited September 23, 2009 by Apotheoun

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='23 September 2009 - 04:01 PM' timestamp='1253739704' post='1971717']
You can believe what you like, but I see no reason to believe in Limbo.
[/quote]

There are many reasons why I think that Infant's Limbo exists. It seems to me to be most in accordance with the declaration of the Ecumenical Council of Trent that baptism is necessary for salvation:

"Justification is a passing from the state in which man is born a song of the first Adam, to the state of grace and adoption as sons of God through the second Adam, Jesus Christ our Savior. [b]After the promulgation of the gospel this passing cannot take place without the water of regeneration or the desire for it[/b], as it is written "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God" (Ecumenical Council of Trent: Denzinger-Schonmetzer 1524, emphasis added)

"If anyone shall say that baptism is optional, that is, not necessary for salvation: let him be anathema." (Ecumenical Council of Trent: Denzinger-Schonmezter 1618)

Edited September 23, 2009 by Resurrexi

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='23 September 2009 - 03:14 PM' timestamp='1253740479' post='1971725']
There are many reasons why I think that Infant's Limbo exists. It seems to me to be most in accordance with the declaration of the Ecumenical Council of Trent that baptism is necessary for salvation:

"Justification is a passing from the state in which man is born a song of the first Adam, to the state of grace and adoption as sons of God through the second Adam, Jesus Christ our Savior. [b]After the promulgation of the gospel this passing cannot take place without the water of regeneration or the desire for it[/b], as it is written "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God" (Ecumenical Council of Trent: Denzinger-Schonmetzer 1524, emphasis added)

"If anyone shall say that baptism is optional, that is, not necessary for salvation: let him be anathema." (Ecumenical Council of Trent: Denzinger-Schonmezter 1618)
[/quote]
Alas, we shall never agree about things like this, but such is life I suppose.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='23 September 2009 - 04:15 PM' timestamp='1253740553' post='1971727']
Alas, we shall never agree about things like this, but such is life I suppose.
[/quote]

That's a pity.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='23 September 2009 - 03:27 PM' timestamp='1253741241' post='1971731']
That's a pity.
[/quote]
Not really.

[Laudate_Dominum]

So contrary! Why I eyes ya!

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='23 September 2009 - 04:28 PM' timestamp='1253741305' post='1971734']
Not really.
[/quote]

Yes, really

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='23 September 2009 - 03:49 PM' timestamp='1253742563' post='1971751']
Yes, really
[/quote]

[Apotheoun]

This thread has been successfully

[dairygirl4u2c]

so why isn't this an official teaching that can't be changed? or was it never really ratified in some technical thing im unaware of?
it says they go to hell or some such. and it uses definitive languge "let him be anathema etc" more than just passing ideas from a pope.

[quote]The teaching of Carthage was infallibly approved as a rule of the Faith by Pope Zosimus and Pope Innocent I and by the ecumenical councils, which were approved by other popes.

“It has been decided likewise that if anyone says that for this reason the Lord said: “In my house there are many mansions”: that it might be understood that in the kingdom of heaven there will be some middle place or some place anywhere where happy infants live who departed from this life without baptism, without which they cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven, which is life eternal, let him be anathema. For when the Lord says: “Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he shall not enter into the kingdom of God” [John 3:5], what Catholic will doubt that he will be a partner of the devil who has not deserved to be a coheir of Christ? For he who lacks the right part will without doubt run into the left [cf. Matt. 25:41,46].”[/quote]