Papal Authority?

[sacredheartandbloodofjesus]

Debate is now open on whether The Papacy is one of the greatest things got movin into action or the biggest lie ever



Here is some nice scripture that I believe could back up the teaching on papal authority. Notice how Jesus chooses [u]Peters[/u] ship to [u]teach[/u] from and he [u]sits[/u] down...kinda like how Jesus taught that the scribes that sit in the chair of Moses should be listened to and that they should do what the scribes teach and not so much what they do.Hmmm...kinda sounds like the papacy. Then Jesus says to [u]Peter[/u] "Fear not: from henceforth thou shalt catch men"


[u]St.Luke Chapter 5 verses 1-10[/u]

[center]1 And it came to pass, that when the multitudes pressed upon him to hear the word of God, he stood by the lake of Genesareth, 2 And saw two ships standing by the lake: but the fishermen were gone out of them, and were washing their nets. 3 And going into one of the ships that was Simon's, he desired him to draw back a little from the land. And sitting he taught the multitudes out of the ship. 4 Now when he had ceased to speak, he said to Simon: Launch out into the deep, and let down your nets for a draught. 5 And Simon answering said to him: Master, we have labored all the night, and have taken nothing: but at thy word I will let down the net.

6 And when they had done this, they enclosed a very great multitude of fishes, and their net broke. 7 And they beckoned to their partners that were in the other ship, that they should come and help them. And they came, and filled both the ships, so that they were almost sinking. 8 Which when Simon Peter saw, he fell down at Jesus' knees, saying: Depart from me, for I am a sinful man, O Lord. 9 For he was wholly astonished, and all that were with him, at the draught of the fishes which they had taken. 10 And so were also James and John the sons of Zebedee, who were Simon's partners. And Jesus saith to Simon: Fear not: from henceforth thou shalt catch men.[/center]

[dairygirl4u2c]

here's what i consider some illuminating threads on the matter:

http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=84554&hl=cyprian&st=0

http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=84849&hl=cyprian&st=0

http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=76548&st=0&gopid=1970839&#entry1970839

[CatherineM]

Not much to debate there in my opinion. Jesus gave the keys to Peter. End of story.

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='sacredheartandbloodofjesus' date='21 September 2009 - 11:15 PM' timestamp='1253589327' post='1970812']
Debate is now open on whether The Papacy is one of the greatest things got movin into action or the biggest lie ever



Here is some nice scripture that I believe could back up the teaching on papal authority. Notice how Jesus chooses [u]Peters[/u] ship to [u]teach[/u] from and he [u]sits[/u] down...kinda like how Jesus taught that the scribes that sit in the chair of Moses should be listened to and that they should do what the scribes teach and not so much what they do.Hmmm...kinda sounds like the papacy. Then Jesus says to [u]Peter[/u] "Fear not: from henceforth thou shalt catch men"


[u]St.Luke Chapter 5 verses 1-10[/u]

[center]1 And it came to pass, that when the multitudes pressed upon him to hear the word of God, he stood by the lake of Genesareth, 2 And saw two ships standing by the lake: but the fishermen were gone out of them, and were washing their nets. 3 And going into one of the ships that was Simon's, he desired him to draw back a little from the land. And sitting he taught the multitudes out of the ship. 4 Now when he had ceased to speak, he said to Simon: Launch out into the deep, and let down your nets for a draught. 5 And Simon answering said to him: Master, we have labored all the night, and have taken nothing: but at thy word I will let down the net.

6 And when they had done this, they enclosed a very great multitude of fishes, and their net broke. 7 And they beckoned to their partners that were in the other ship, that they should come and help them. And they came, and filled both the ships, so that they were almost sinking. 8 Which when Simon Peter saw, he fell down at Jesus' knees, saying: Depart from me, for I am a sinful man, O Lord. 9 For he was wholly astonished, and all that were with him, at the draught of the fishes which they had taken. 10 And so were also James and John the sons of Zebedee, who were Simon's partners. And Jesus saith to Simon: Fear not: from henceforth thou shalt catch men.[/center]
[/quote]

[font="Arial"]It is also worthy of note that whenever Jesus addressed the Apostles, Peter always answered for all of them. Mark 8:29: "And he asked them, "But who do you say that I am?" Peter answered him, "You are the Christ." And in John 6:67-69, "As a result of this, many (of) his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him. Jesus then said to the Twelve, 'Do you also want to leave?' Simon Peter answered him, 'Master, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. We have come to believe and are convinced that you are the Holy One of God.'"

And Jesus told Peter that he, in particular, was on Satan's list, but that he was also supposed be a rock to his fellow Apostles. "[/font][font="Arial"]Simon, Simon, behold, Satan demanded to have you, that he might sift you like wheat, but I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail; and when you have turned again, strengthen your brethren."

And, of course, St. Peter was given the keys of the kingdom of heaven. This wasn't just flowery speech. It has a historical context. Whenever a king left his kingdom to go on a voyage, he would give power over the city to his second in command: a viceroy, or as we more frequently say, a vicar. The vicar was entrusted with much of the authority of the king while he was away. Customarily, the viceroy actually wore the keys given him by the king upon his shoulder, as a sign of his position. Peter [i]is[/i] the vicar of Christ, entrusted with ruling Christendom until Christ returns again. The historical practice (and prophetic nature) of the keys of the kingdom can be read in Isaiah 22:22: [/font][font="Arial"][size="2"]"And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open." [/size][/font][font="Arial"]

~Sternhauser

[/font]

Edited September 22, 2009 by Sternhauser

[dairygirl4u2c]

as a statement of faith, sure, 'jesus gave peter the keys, simple as that'.
but for someone discerning, more is needed than that. and in fact, 'the keys' is pretty weak. much better to say 'the chair of peter was the roman church', simple as that. though, even that is inadequate to really make a for sure closed case. (the reasons why mentioned in teh above links etc
(if any of this were so clear, the orthodox would have joined back with the catholics a long time ago. it's not just cause the orthodox haven't read the quotes at www.catholic.com....

[quote]

catholic encylopedia itself contradicts [the common catholic] notion of hte keys:

QUOTE
It is comparatively seldom that the Fathers, when speaking of the power of the keys, make any reference to the supremacy of St. Peter. When they deal with that question, they ordinarily appeal not to the gift of the keys but to his office as the rock
QUOTE
(1) In the Fathers the references to the promise of Matthew 16:19, are of frequent occurrence. Almost invariably the words of Christ are cited in proof of the Church's power to forgive sins. The application is a natural one, for the promise of the keys is immediately followed by the words: "Whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth", etc.
http://www.newadvent...then/08631b.htm

Quote
several of the Fathers interpret this verse as Jesus referring to Peter's faith -- not Peter himself -- so that is a large reason why non-Catholics are comfortable with this interpretation.


binding and losing.
if this person could bind and lose (the verse that's often said to refer to the pope, but then read completely shows opposite in fact), maybe what catholics think isn't necessarily what is true:

Quote
QUOTE
22 And I will lay the key of the house of David upon his shoulder: and he shall open, and none shall shut: and he shall shut, and none shall open. 23 And I will fasten him as a peg in a sure place, and he shall be for a throne of glory to the house of his father. 24 And they shall hang upon him all the glory of his father's house, divers kinds of vessels, every little vessel, from the vessels of cups even to every instrument of music. 25 In that day, saith the Lord of hosts, shall the peg be removed, that was fastened in the sure place: and it shall be broken and shall fall: and that which hung thereon, shall perish, because the Lord hath spoken it.


matthew 18, binding and losing was given to all.

now that the keys means the papal supremecy has been deconstructed. some plausible interpretations. peter was the first to confess faith. that means he'd be the leader in going to heaven, the first. the keys could just be a way of saying "binding and losing" and that it was referred as keys to peter does't negate it to anyone else... there's no reason it'd have to be. the keys could mean the way of faith, his confession, a christian's confession is the "key".
none of this is rationalization either, it's all totally plausible once you accept tht the catholic interpretation isn't necessarily the right one.[/quote]

Edited September 22, 2009 by dairygirl4u2c

[Selah]

The Pope has authority given to him by Jesus through St. Peter.

Matthew 16:18

And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

St. Peter was the first Pope, or leader of the Church. He appointed a successor, a young man named Linus:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Linus

[quote]Saint Linus (d. ca.76) was the second Bishop of Rome, according to Irenaeus[1], Jerome,[2] Eusebius,[3] John Chrysostom,[4] the Liberian Catalogue[5] and the Liber Pontificalis;[6] he was succeeded by Anacletus. The Roman Catholic Church considers Saint Linus to be the second Pope, succeeding St. Peter as Bishop of Rome after the latter's martyrdom.[7]

Irenaeus identifies him with the Linus mentioned in 2 Timothy 4:21, an identification that is not certain, saying,

The blessed apostles, then, having founded and built up the Church, [b]committed into the hands of Linus the office of the episcopate.[/b] Of this Linus, [b]Paul makes mention in the Epistles to Timothy. [/b] To him succeeded Anacletus; and after him, in the third place from the apostles, Clement was allotted the bishopric.[8]
The Liberian Catalogue and the Liber Pontificalis both date his Episcopate to 56–67 during the reign of Nero, but Jerome dates it to 67–78, and Eusebius dates the end of his Episcopate to the second year of the reign of Titus (80).[/quote]

Peter did indeed have authority, as did and do his successors. It's really rather facinating history.

Edited September 22, 2009 by Selah

[Starets]

Actually, I think the proper term is Papal Primacy and that is the term I will use. I will say that Papal Primacy is based solidly both on Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture. It is based on MT 16:18, where Christ says that "you are Peter and upon this rock I will build my church. Since the popes are the successors of St. Peter, Papl Primnacy is based on the primacy of St. Peter and is an outgrowth of of Jesus having built his church on Peter. Not on theBible or Peter's testimony, but on Peter. If you have Ott's Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, you can see how that works both in terms of Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition in Book 4, Chapter 2, sections 4-8. There is far more detail that we can go into about it.

Maybe stormstopper has a different definition of "checking your breain at the door" than I do, but I see nothing that would involve such a requirement in this or any other Christian doctrine or dogma. Not everything has the same degree of theological certainty, as can be seen in the pages of Ott's book. Not everything is "De Fide". If all christian doctrines were to be considered "De Fide" in even their tiniest detail, then I could see your point. but as it is, I have to disagree with him.

Nothing original or unprecedented was decided at the First Vatican Council. The Council, led by the Holy Spirit, more sharply defined the christian doctrine of Papal Infallibility. If the world found that shocking, that is its problem, not the Church's. Papal Infallibility does not mean that the Pope is sinless. It does not mean that the Pope is impeccable. Some Popes have been jerks and have been told so to their faces. Papal Infallibility also does not mean that everything they say or write down is always right. It means that in certain strictly limited situations, what the Pope says or writes is protected from error by the Holy Spirit. this is part of what it means to be the rock on which Jesus founded His church.

There are no shortages of references in Sacred Tradition that make reference to Papal Primacy, and Ott mentions a couple of them. I think Jurgen's Faith of the Early Fathers has a few mentions of it as well.

[dauntingknight]

[quote name='CatherineM' date='21 September 2009 - 11:57 PM' timestamp='1253591822' post='1970846']
Not much to debate there in my opinion. Jesus gave the keys to Peter. End of story.
[/quote]
I one time had to tell a Episcolpalin(I believe thats how you spell it) that the keys are not actually Keys.

That pretty much sums it up for you.

[sacredheartandbloodofjesus]

[b]Mathew Chapter 16 verses 16-20[/b]

"Simon Peter answered and said: Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answering, said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven. And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven. Then he commanded his disciples, that they should tell no one that he was Jesus the Christ."


[color="#FF0000"] "Thou art Peter"... As St. Peter, by divine revelation, here made a solemn profession of his faith of the divinity of Christ; so in recompense of this faith and profession, our Lord here declares to him the dignity to which he is pleased to raise him: viz., that he to whom he had already given the name of Peter, signifying a rock, St. John 1. 42, should be a rock indeed, of invincible strength, for the support of the building of the church; in which building he should be, next to Christ himself, the chief foundation stone, in quality of chief pastor, ruler, and governor; and should have accordingly all fulness of ecclesiastical power, signified by the keys of the kingdom of heaven.

"Upon this rock"... The words of Christ to Peter, spoken in the vulgar language of the Jews which our Lord made use of, were the same as if he had said in English, Thou art a Rock, and upon this rock I will build my church. So that, by the plain course of the words, Peter is here declared to be the rock, upon which the church was to be built: Christ himself being both the principal foundation and founder of the same. Where also note, that Christ, by building his house, that is, his church, upon a rock, has thereby secured it against all storms and floods, like the wise builder, St. Matt. 7. 24, 25.

"The gates of hell"... That is, the powers of darkness, and whatever Satan can do, either by himself, or his agents. For as the church is here likened to a house, or fortress, built on a rock; so the adverse powers are likened to a contrary house or fortress, the gates of which, that is, the whole strength, and all the efforts it can make, will never be able to prevail over the city or church of Christ. By this promise we are fully assured, that neither idolatry, heresy, nor any pernicious error whatsoever shall at any time prevail over the church of Christ.

"Loose upon earth"... The loosing the bands of temporal punishments due to sins, is called an indulgence; the power of which is here granted. [/color]


I would love to see this challenged by someone who doesnt believe in Papal Primacy.