Calling All Protestants

[Dave]

[quote name='Bruce S' date='Apr 4 2004, 01:04 PM'] The door swings both ways, everyone knows that. Some elect IN, others OUT.

I guess one needs to settle in wherever the Lord leads ya. [/quote]
Problem: The Lord never leads people out of the Church. Those who leave don't do it because of God. They may misguidedly think they're going where God wants to lead them, though.

[willguy]

[quote]The door swings both ways, everyone knows that. Some elect IN, others OUT.

I guess one needs to settle in wherever the Lord leads ya.[/quote]

I follow a God of truth. There is one truth, and it is not contradictory. I do not follow a God of confusion. Therefore, God will not lead separate people to contradictory truths.

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote]Like I said, most Catholics need the doc dump to prevail, one on one, they don't have the verbal skills that Protestants normally develop[/quote]

Wrong again Bruce!

I know a few right here at phatmass that would do just fine "one on one"!

The Holy Spirit is moving on evanglizing in the Catholic Church.

Catholics know alot more, the Holy Spirit is moving, Amen!

Long live JPII and Christ's Holy Catholic Church.

One person to go one on one with would be Scott Hahn. lol

But you can't talk without prayer. If your in it to be right your going in circles!

I'm nothing, I only know what I know because God so graciously has given it to me. I don't deserve it! "Who is good but God alone."

Humility it's what they call a virtue, practice it. We all need to!

God Bless
Jason

Edited April 5, 2004 by Jason

[Justified Saint]

Laudate_Dominum,

Which debates do you think Matatics mopped the floor with White? I don't doubt it of course but they have had at least a dozen of them and I think Matatics hasn't done as good on some of them as others.

I agree with you though, these kinds of debates are more like dramas and Mr. White certainly places way too much importance on them. They can be good things but not when you engage in the kind of self-congratulatory triumph that Mr. White does, when this takes place it suggests something other than a honest discussion of the relevant issue. If he spent lest time boasting of "winning" his debates he might have more time to respond to the several lengthy critiques of his work out there that he has cleverly chosen to ignore. Of course I would too if I were him.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Justified Saint' date='Apr 4 2004, 10:23 PM'] Laudate_Dominum,

Which debates do you think Matatics mopped the floor with White? I don't doubt it of course but they have had at least a dozen of them and I think Matatics hasn't done as good on some of them as others.

I agree with you though, these kinds of debates are more like dramas and Mr. White certainly places way too much importance on them. They can be good things but not when you engage in the kind of self-congratulatory triumph that Mr. White does, when this takes place it suggests something other than a honest discussion of the relevant issue. If he spent lest time boasting of "winning" his debates he might have more time to respond to the several lengthy critiques of his work out there that he has cleverly chosen to ignore. Of course I would too if I were him. [/quote]
There was one on Sola Scriptura that Matatics did a great job on. And I can think of another one on Mary's perpetual virginity that was pretty sweet.
My favorite was an online debate between White and Gallegos, in which White came out looking utterly foolish. It was a debate on the Fathers of course.

What do you think of the old White vs. Akin debate? Just wondering because I actually haven't heard that one although I've seen it for sale on Catholic Answer's website so I assume its pretty interesting.

I actually try to stay away from that stuff these days. I had a phase where I was kind of hooked on all that, but I don't think it was healthy. Its kind of like watching WWF or something. And I used to daydream a lot about what I would say to these guys if I could debate them. Ha! I'm sure an experienced debater like that would run circles around this rookie. When I was a teenager I used to daydream about which moves I would use if I were to fight Mike Tyson. I can dream on.

God bless.

[Justified Saint]

The Akin and White debate was a gem for sure. I must confess though that I bought it from White's website It saved me like 15 dollars so what was I to do? Now, the first mp3 was a little cut off at the end when James Akin was saying something, sabotage on White's part perhaps? :ph34r:

Indeed, White's debate with Gallegos was good. I printed out and read the debate on the papacy and printed out the one on sola scriptura too but I haven't gotten around to reading that one yet. I have also got the correspondence between White and Dave Armstrong printed out and have read most of that. White did look utterly foolish debating Gallegos. Can you shed any light on the format? Did White literally have nothing to say to all of Gallegos' arguments?

What do you think of White's upcoming debate in May with Gary Michuta? Or am I tempting you?

[Dusty Fro]

Wow, now I know how non-Christians feel when Christians say "YOU CAN'T ARGUE WITH THE BIBLE! YOU ARE WRONG! TAKE THAT!"

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Dusty Fro' date='Apr 5 2004, 12:20 AM'] Wow, now I know how non-Christians feel when Christians say "YOU CAN'T ARGUE WITH THE BIBLE! YOU ARE WRONG! TAKE THAT!" [/quote]
What do you mean? I have no clue what you're talking about..

[Dusty Fro]

I'm not Catholic, though I am a Christian interested in the Catholic faith and have considered becoming formally Catholic at certain times during my life. When y'all shove articles and speeches and scriptures in non-Catholics faces, saying "Neener neener, you're wrong," it doesn't show the kind of love one expects from a follower of Jesus. Jesus gently showed the way to people who didn't have the whole picture, and the only times that he was short with people were when the Pharisees and people at the tables in front of the church were trying to keep people from finding the whole truth.

I've had my self righteous days, and I see how it turns people off to God.

[Jake Huether]

[quote name='Bruce S' date='Apr 4 2004, 12:00 PM']
Yes I have, and to me, it is the most obnoxious show on EWTN.

Imagine the cries of BIGOTRY, that would ensue here, if TBN had a show called LEAVING ROME, where the focus every week were Nuns and Priests who LEFT the Catholic Church?

That entire show is in terrible poor taste.

Frankly, I wonder why someone hasn't done that show, just to show EWTN how bad that format really is....

:ph34r: :angry: [/quote]
Except for the fact that those that convert.

1.) Convert because they UNDERSTAND the Church teachings.
2.) Never bad mouth or trash talk their former "home".
3.) Are much better Christians.


On the contrary, if there were such a show as "leaving Rome", you would expect, as proven by others, that.

1.) They left the Church because the DIDN'T understand. And they would talk about what they felt or thought was the Teaching of the Church, which in reality, when studied, isn't the Teaching at all.
2.) They (some anyway) couldn't pry themselves away from a particular sin (i.e. active homosexuality, divorce / remarriage, contraception).
3.) They would most likely bash and bad mouth the Church.


I've seen the show and it is in extremely GOOD taste. It is very informative.

[Bruce S]

[quote]On the contrary, if there were such a show as "leaving Rome", you would expect, as proven by others, that.

1.) They left the Church because the DIDN'T understand. And they would talk about what they felt or thought was the Teaching of the Church, which in reality, when studied, isn't the Teaching at all.[/quote]

Ok, all those nuns and priests who leave are just poorly educated ones, the ones that stay are well educated ones...grin. See how stupid that sounds?

[quote]2.) They (some anyway) couldn't pry themselves away from a particular sin (i.e. active homosexuality, divorce / remarriage, contraception).
3.) They would most likely bash and bad mouth the Church.[/quote]

I want to put this ex Nun on my first LEAVING ROME show, she sounds perfect, a counter Scott Han type, PhD and a THEOLOGY professor at a Catholic College, and she walked out, read this one...

Put her against Scott Hann and let the fir fly...grin.

[url="http://www.post-gazette.com/regionstate/20010125exnunreg4.asp"]LEAVING ROME, First TV Guest Click Here[/url]

[theculturewarrior]

Dusty Fro...

I hear you. Perhaps message boards aren't a good place to learn about religion. Protestants, Catholics, and Orthodox seem to be at the worst on these boards. However, phatmass from what I have seen seems a bit more benign.

I love my Church because it is the Church Jesus founded. It is a love that comes out of my relationship with God. I do not love God only because my Church teaches it. This would be what many Christians call "religion." Likewise, I love my fellow Catholics because Jesus first loved me. I do not love them only because of any inherent goodness. It is a love that comes from Jesus and not from my brethren. Does that make sense?

Bruce...a dissident feminist nun? You want her for your poster girl?

Edited April 8, 2004 by theculturewarrior

[Jake Huether]

[quote name='Bruce S' date='Apr 8 2004, 02:57 PM']




[/quote]
[quote]Ok, all those nuns and priests who leave are just poorly educated ones, the ones that stay are well educated ones...grin. See how stupid that sounds?[/quote]

It does sound stupid. Only because it has nothing to do with an education. It has to do with understanding. Priests and Nuns can be Spiritually blind while getting all 'A's in their curriculum. Look at Judas. With Jesus himself, but totally missed the point.


[quote]I want to put this ex Nun on my first LEAVING ROME show, she sounds perfect, a counter Scott Han type, PhD and a THEOLOGY professor at a Catholic College, and she walked out, read this one...

Put her against Scott Hann and let the fir fly...grin.

[url="http://www.post-gazette.com/regionstate/20010125exnunreg4.asp"]LEAVING ROME, First TV Guest Click Here[/url][/quote]


Can anyone have a serious dialogue with you...???

[Bruce S]

Ingrid H. Shafer, Ph.D., Professor of Philosophy & Religion
Mary Jo Ragan Professor of Interdisciplinary Studies
University of Science and Arts of Oklahoma, Chickasha, OK 73018
Tel: 405.224.3140 ext. 1312 (o) 405.224.3988 (h) FAX: 405.224.3044 (h)
e-mail: ihs@ionet.net web: [url="http://www.usao.edu/~facshaferi/"]http://www.usao.edu/~facshaferi/[/url] [url="http://ecumene.org/"]http://ecumene.org/[/url]
______________________________________________________________________







29 January 2001

Dr. John E. Murray, Jr., President
Duquesne University
600 Forbes Avenue
Pittsburgh, PA 15282

Dear President Murray: [of Duquesne University]

I am writing you as the designated spokesperson for the National Board of the Association for the Rights of Catholics in the Church.

We are deeply concerned about the reports that a tenured member of the Duquesne theology department, Dr. Moni McIntyre, has been relieved of her teaching duties [b]and her books have been removed from the departmental display case [/b]because she has joined the Episcopal church and been ordained to the Episcopal priesthood. We are appalled not only because Dr. McIntyre's contractual rights have been violated [b]but because her students are being deprived of their rights to a balanced education. In addition, Catholic theology itself is made to appear in need of protection from those who might hold opinions that are not officially sanctioned. Theology taught in an atmosphere of repression and fear is not true theology. It is indoctrination and the very antithesis of an academically legitimate pursuit of learning. [/b]

If Dr. McIntyre were the only theologian in the department, one might perhaps try to make the case for her being a practicing Catholic. However, there are 13 members of the theology department at Duquesne and students have many opportunities to observe a healthy clash of interpretations and perspectives. In addition, absolutely nothing has changed since the time she was granted tenure in regard to Professor McIntyre, the scholar and teacher.


As for theological differences between Episcopalians and Catholics, let us keep in mind that the most [b]acclaimed commentary on the Lectionary, a book used by countless priests throughout the English- speaking world as they prepare their homilies, was written by the Rev. Dr. Reginald Fuller, born in England, an Anglican priest, Professor Emeritus at Virginia Theological Seminary, [/b]and for many years a member of the Catholic Bishops' subcommittee on the Lectionary. Dismissing a faculty member from a Catholic university because she is now an Episcopalian and a priest has the potential of undermining decades of ecumenical progress.

In the university context, even at private universities in the Catholic tradition, Catholic theology is an academic field, and as such can be taught by anyone who has the academic qualifications to do so. To expect professors of Catholic theology necessarily to be practicing Catholics makes no more sense than to demand that only Marxists will be allowed to teach about Marxism or Buddhists to teach about Buddhism. University teaching involves critical thinking; it involves teaching about a topic from multiple perspectives. Unless the distinction is made between evangelization and academic presentation, departments of theology will cease being legitimate academic departments, and that would truly be a tragedy.

Very truly yours,



Ingrid Shafer, Ph.D., Vice President ARCC
[url="http://arcc-catholic-rights.org/"]http://arcc-catholic-rights.org/[/url] and [url="http://astro.temple.edu/~arcc/"]http://astro.temple.edu/~arcc/[/url]

[theculturewarrior]

Misery makes strange bedfellows. I'm not sure it is misery, (it is something). You are choosing strange allies!