Kill Vrs. Murder

[King's Rook's Pawn]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='29 October 2009 - 04:54 PM' timestamp='1256846076' post='1993470']
Well, the story was true, not hypothetical.

Allowing the Germans to go back to their units would give the officers of those units, the knowledge that American forces were close. It would also give information on where these troops probably came from and thereby the Germans would send out their own reconnaissance and get exact locations in order to call in artillery.

I guess you haven't served in an infantry unit as I have. Allowing the soldiers to return to their units would've been dereliction of duty by the Americans.

I thought maybe they could've just wounded the young lads, instead of killing them. But then, they'd probably be picked up by their own German units, and would be willing and able to give vital information.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that what the American soldiers did, was absolutely right, but I haven't come up with a way they could've done anything other than what they did, without risking their own lives and the lives of their fellow soldiers.

Jim
[/quote]


I would argue that extenuating circumstances limited their moral culpability, but it does violate the principles of just war. All I can say is that this is why war is an absolute disaster, always. It's the negation of virtue. It's the negation of Christian charity. If there are circumstances in which war is justified they must be few and far between.

[JimR-OCDS]

[quote name='King's Rook's Pawn' date='29 October 2009 - 05:13 PM' timestamp='1256847189' post='1993481']
I would argue that extenuating circumstances limited their moral culpability, but it does violate the principles of just war. All I can say is that this is why war is an absolute disaster, always. It's the negation of virtue. It's the negation of Christian charity. If there are circumstances in which war is justified they must be few and far between.
[/quote]


The just war doctrine has to do with nations going to war, not individual soldiers out in the middle of combat.

In the middle of a fire fight, if an enemy soldier throws down his weapon to surrender, the other soldier can't stop and decide whether to take him prisoner or not. No, he must kill him and move on to the next target.

To pause and reflect on the situation, would result in your own death and those of your fellow soldiers.

Jim

[rkwright]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='30 October 2009 - 08:26 AM' timestamp='1256909187' post='1993866']
The just war doctrine has to do with nations going to war, not individual soldiers out in the middle of combat.

In the middle of a fire fight, if an enemy soldier throws down his weapon to surrender, the other soldier can't stop and decide whether to take him prisoner or not. No, he must kill him and move on to the next target.

To pause and reflect on the situation, would result in your own death and those of your fellow soldiers.

Jim
[/quote]

No. This is not what the Church teaches on the matter. Sorry it doesn't fit with your idea of war.

[JimR-OCDS]

[quote name='rkwright' date='30 October 2009 - 10:50 AM' timestamp='1256910631' post='1993870']
No. This is not what the Church teaches on the matter. Sorry it doesn't fit with your idea of war.
[/quote]


The Just War Doctrine,

[quote]The strict conditions for legitimate defense by military force require rigorous consideration. The gravity of such a decision makes it subject to rigorous conditions of moral legitimacy. At one and the same time: [list][*]the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;[*]all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;[*]there must be serious prospects of success;[*]the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modern means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition.[/list]These are the traditional elements enumerated in what is called the "just war" doctrine. The evaluation of these conditions for moral legitimacy belongs to the prudential judgment of those who have responsibility for the common good. http://www.catholic...._Doctrine_1.asp
[/quote]

A soldier in the field in the middle of a battle, doesn't have the ability to decide if he's following Church teaching or not with regard to the Just War Doctrine. It should've already been decided, before he was sent into war.

Jim

Edited October 30, 2009 by JimR-OCDS

[rkwright]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='30 October 2009 - 10:04 AM' timestamp='1256915047' post='1993885']
The Just War Doctrine,



A soldier in the field in the middle of a battle, doesn't have the ability to decide if he's following Church teaching or not with regard to the Just War Doctrine. It should've already been decided, before he was sent into war.

Jim
[/quote]

I agree with you. But that does NOT mean that once a soldier gets involved in a just war all morality goes out the window. Just because its a Just war doesn't mean you call kill civilians or other non-combatants. Just War theory does not mean if its just you can do anything.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='30 October 2009 - 08:26 AM' timestamp='1256909187' post='1993866']
The just war doctrine has to do with nations going to war, not individual soldiers out in the middle of combat.

In the middle of a fire fight, if an enemy soldier throws down his weapon to surrender, the other soldier can't stop and decide whether to take him prisoner or not. No, he must kill him and move on to the next target.

To pause and reflect on the situation, would result in your own death and those of your fellow soldiers.

Jim
[/quote]
The Church does not and cannot agree with you. Some of your ideas advocate murder during war.

[JimR-OCDS]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='30 October 2009 - 12:20 PM' timestamp='1256916005' post='1993894']
The Church does not and cannot agree with you. Some of your ideas advocate murder during war.
[/quote]


Cept, you're not able to show that.


Jim

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='30 October 2009 - 01:59 PM' timestamp='1256929140' post='1994002']
Cept, you're not able to show that.


Jim
[/quote]
We already have. Plugging your ears and singing doesn't change that.

[JimR-OCDS]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='30 October 2009 - 04:10 PM' timestamp='1256929842' post='1994010']
We already have. Plugging your ears and singing doesn't change that.
[/quote]


No you haven't.

Jim

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='30 October 2009 - 02:43 PM' timestamp='1256931812' post='1994025']
No you haven't.

Jim
[/quote]
LALALALALALALALALA


[quote]2268 The fifth commandment forbids direct and intentional killing as gravely sinful. the murderer [b]and those who cooperate voluntarily in murder[/b] commit a sin that cries out to heaven for vengeance.[/quote]
[quote]1753 A good intention (for example, that of helping one's neighbor) does not make behavior that is intrinsically disordered, such as lying and calumny, good[size="4"] [b]or just.[/b] [/size]The end does not justify the means. Thus the condemnation of an innocent person cannot be justified as a legitimate means of saving the nation. On the other hand, an added bad intention (such as vainglory) makes an act evil that, in and of itself, can be good (such as almsgiving).[/quote]
[quote]1754 The circumstances, including the consequences, are secondary elements of a moral act. They contribute to increasing or diminishing the moral goodness or evil of human acts (for example, the amount of a theft). They can also diminish or increase the agent's responsibility (such as acting out of a fear of death). [b]Circumstances of themselves cannot change the moral quality of acts themselves[/b]; they can make neither good nor right an action that is in itself evil.[/quote]
[quote]1756 It is therefore an error to judge the morality of human acts by considering only the intention that inspires them or the circumstances (environment, social pressure, duress or emergency, etc.) which supply their context. There are acts which, in and of themselves, independently of circumstances and intentions, are always gravely illicit by reason of their object; such as blasphemy and perjury, [b]murder[/b] and adultery. One may not do evil so that good may result from it.[/quote]
Happy now?

Edited October 30, 2009 by Nihil Obstat

[JimR-OCDS]

OK, I agree.

Before reading your post, I came across this.

[quote]Non-combatants, wounded soldiers, and prisoners must be respected and treated humanely. Actions deliberately contrary to the law of nations and to its universal principles are crimes, as are the orders that command such actions. Blind obedience does not suffice to excuse those who carry them out. Thus the extermination of a people, nation, or ethnic minority must be condemned as a mortal sin. One is morally bound to resist orders that command genocide (CCC 2313). [/quote]


Mia Culpa


Jim

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='30 October 2009 - 03:08 PM' timestamp='1256933336' post='1994034']
OK, I agree.

Before reading your post, I came across this.




Mia Culpa


Jim
[/quote]
Thank you.