The Inevitability...

[Bruce S]

No the truth really is, I understand WHY the Jews immediately left Jesus after his blood and body and eat and drink statements.

It would take YOUR studying Judiasm for a year and attending Synagogue to understand, which I have done.

Catholics frame this in support of the Eucharist, and Protestants counter with symbolic, it really was neither.

You need to really take off the mindset of both versions, and get into the mindset of Jews of the period.

They left over Judaism, not because of Christian differences that we squabble over.

I didn't rise to the debate, because subtleness isn't something that is often understood here, here it is WE ARE RIGHT, PERIOD, end of story, most of the time.

Nuance isn't favored in these parts. So I usually don't bother.

[theculturewarrior]

I think Bruce may have a point, but since he hasn't elaborated on it, I will present it for him.

Last night I was listening to Fr. Groeschel on EWTN's bookmark. (BTW has anybody heard how he is doing, I don't know if it was a rerun). Fr. Groeschel distinguished between loving Christ and loving the Church.

Those who love the Church more, and believe in Christ because the Church teaches it, are quick to lose hope at problems within the Catholic Church, everything from scandals to watered down homilies to bad liturgy. I think many of the Catholics who leave for protestantism have been scandalized by their experience, however local, with Catholics, parish priests, etc.

However, Fr. Groeschel also spoke of those who loved Christ, and believe in the Church because Christ established it. He said these Catholics will realize that the Church has had problems before, scandals, bad bishops, etc., and it will not challenge their faith in God.

Either way, Catholicism teaches Truth. It is the True Church because it was established by Christ himself. "To whom shall we go? You, Lord, have the words of eternal life."

[twf]

I can verify what someone said earlier...indeed 150 000 adults will be entering into full communion with the Catholic Church in the USA alone this Holy Saturday. This despite all the scandals on the news. Show's who's really in charge. (Go to [url="http://zenit.org/english/"]http://zenit.org/english/[/url] for the full report).

"And I also say unto thee, that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it." There have been many scandals, many corruptions, many poor leaders in the Church throughout history, like the Scriptures foretold (remember that the Kingdom of Heaven is like a net that collects both good and bad fish...see Mat. 13:46-48), yet Christ keeps His Church going. Through thick and think, our Lord provides for His Church. It never dies...it stands firm on a solid foundation, even if many of it's members are less than sturdy.

[willguy]

[quote name='Bruce S' date='Apr 4 2004, 01:13 PM']
Beats me, I'm not God. [/quote]
Well, there goes my whole belief system.

But seriously, you've gotta be able to do better than that. You claim at the start that because people leave the Catholic Church then it is not the truth, but people have always left the truth. The Bible gives testimony to people leaving the truth. If it was true that once people found truth they never left it, then no religion in the world would be the truth, because they have all had people leave.

[quote]I didn't rise to the debate, because subtleness isn't something that is often understood here, here it is WE ARE RIGHT, PERIOD, end of story, most of the time.

Nuance isn't favored in these parts. So I usually don't bother. [/quote]

Welcome to our side of the table. You ever tried being a Catholic on an evangelical board? I have. You don't get a word out of your mouth (symbolically) before they start preaching another lie or half-truth. And when you try to present an arguement that they can't counter, they write you off as an idiot who blindly follows the Church, doesn't read scripture, and will probably burn in hell for worshiping Mary. You walked into our territory, don't be surprised when we defend it.

[Lounge Daddy]

[font="Courier"]So, Catholic or not -
I am curious... what has brought you to Christianity on your quest for truth?
Why Christianity?[/font]

[Bruce S]

[quote]Welcome to our side of the table. You ever tried being a Catholic on an evangelical board? I have. You don't get a word out of your mouth (symbolically) before they start preaching another lie or half-truth. And when you try to present an arguement that they can't counter, they write you off as an idiot who blindly follows the Church, doesn't read scripture, and will probably burn in hell for worshiping Mary. You walked into our territory, don't be surprised when we defend it. [/quote]

I know, the ignorance on OUR side of the aisle is terrific regarding REAL Catholic beliefs. I'm very aware of this one.

We have our bigots too, trust me on this one, I come up against them all the time. I actually defend Catholics from time to time... now the Mary thing....in PRACTICE goes way over the line, and you all know that happens, so I will leave that one alone for now.

REALITY is my goal, real understandings. Otherwise I would not even be here on this site for so long.

Both sides have SOME of the puzzle, and we need to have a toe in both to fully appeciate the full understands, and I might suggest, some time in Messianic Jewish sites too, they have a lot that all convential Christians have forgotten too.

Edited April 5, 2004 by Bruce S

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='Bruce S' date='Apr 4 2004, 11:42 AM']
I honestly wonder how many convert into the Catholic Church in American, excluding those who are doing so because they are getting married to a Catholic Church faithful and want to be the same religion?
[/quote]
I think that marriage is the main reason someone becomes Catholic. My husband and I come from a long line of Protestants-- not a Catholic in our families. It was through other circumstances that we explored Catholicism (we were pretty happy in our Baptist church, tyvm). However, in our RCIA class of thirty some, we were the only ones converting as a couple. Everyone else (mostly men) were converting to make their families wholey Catholic (some after years of being married-- something I'll never understand... but that's a different thread)...

Something that has been mentioned and I must agree with is lack of education in the Catholic teaching. Many Catholics don't know their faith very well. That is something that I think Protestants really do better at, frankly.

A very conservative priest once told us that he admired Evangelicals because they actually LIKE being in church. Our family is there for three hours on Sunday morning. Conversely, at mass we see people duck out right after taking the Eucharist! If we could somehow combine this joy in being at church (which we don't see as strongly at our parish) with sound Catholic teaching (which we do, of course)... we'd have something really great.

Every former Catholic that I ever met left the Church over poor teaching. They didn't understand the beauty, the intimate nature of the Mass... it was last in, first out... pity... I am really hoping to bring some people back to the Catholic Church with me...

[Bruce S]

[quote]A very conservative priest once told us that he admired Evangelicals because they actually LIKE being in church. Our family is there for three hours on Sunday morning. Conversely, at mass we see people duck out right after taking the Eucharist! [/quote]

yeah, the most dangerous place in the world is between the door and the parking lot AFTER the Eucharist, grin, they need radar guns to slow down the people making tracks OUT of the door...

I think the main reason Evangelicals LIKE service, is it generally isn't a stylized orchestrated event, over and over, it has variety. No matter how "good" a movie is, after you have seen it a few times, you won't have the level of interest that a new movie has. Mass is sort of like that, the core doesn't vary from Mass to Mass, so you are basically watching and participating in a choreograped repeat, over and over.

Given that Sermons, rather than Homilies, are the CORE of most Protestant services, they vary weekly, and when the preacher is on a roll, and firing on all his pistons, there are times when I wish they had another 1/2 hour to keep the momentum going...grin.

And after the service, only 1/2 leave immediately, there is a huge social gathering in the vestibule that goes on for at least 15 minutes with chatting and socializing. I don't see that in the RC parish I have been attending ... for Lent ONLY, I'm not "Coming Home" grin, I know that is a cognitive dissonance but hey, you would have to be me to understand how one can LEARN FROM and REJECT at the very same time.

[Jake Huether]

In the end, if you have been seeking truth and living life for Jesus Christ, and you are in the state of Grace, indeed it is inevitable...

Upon entrance into Heaven, you will be a full fledged member of the Catholic Church. Group: Church Triumphant.

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote]Given that Sermons, rather than Homilies, are the CORE of most Protestant services, they vary weekly, and when the preacher is on a roll, and firing on all his pistons, there are times when I wish they had another 1/2 hour to keep the momentum going...grin. [/quote]

We don't go to Holy Mass for a show! It's Sacred, Holy, that doesn't mean you go off of what you feel!

Jesus did say worship me only when it feels good to you or when you get enjoyment out of it!

No He said love God with your whole being, and your nieghbor the same. It's hard to love each other sometimes. Thats why we pray for grace, and pray for that person. If you think listing to the Word of God should always feel good then you got a wake up call coming.

Jesus died on the Cross for us out of complete love, He was innocent and He knew it, yet He didn't say a word about His innocence. He endured it to death for love of us.

Yet you go off emotions that feel good. I thought you read the lives of the Saints?
Not close enough! They suffered, and if they were not suffering they would look for it or even ask for suffering!

Jesus to St. Faustina "My daughter, suffering will be a sign that I am with you."

Once you understand The Holy Mass, your focus is on The Holy Eucharist. The greatest gift God gives to His people....the gift of His very Self!

Better take off those wordly eyes and start contemplating the things above!

God Bless
Jason

[Livin_the_MASS]

bump

[the lumberjack]

[quote name='Bruce S' date='Apr 5 2004, 08:58 AM'] I think the main reason Evangelicals LIKE service, is it generally isn't a stylized orchestrated event, over and over, it has variety. No matter how "good" a movie is, after you have seen it a few times, you won't have the level of interest that a new movie has. Mass is sort of like that, the core doesn't vary from Mass to Mass, so you are basically watching and participating in a choreograped repeat, over and over.

Given that Sermons, rather than Homilies, are the CORE of most Protestant services, they vary weekly, and when the preacher is on a roll, and firing on all his pistons, there are times when I wish they had another 1/2 hour to keep the momentum going...grin.

And after the service, only 1/2 leave immediately, there is a huge social gathering in the vestibule that goes on for at least 15 minutes with chatting and socializing. I don't see that in the RC parish I have been attending ... for Lent ONLY, I'm not "Coming Home" grin, I know that is a cognitive dissonance but hey, . [/quote]
AMEN!!!!

I remember going to a couple catholic services growing up...a couple times I went with a girlfriend who was catholic, but I "just said no" to the Eucharist...and the Priest looked at me like I had sprouted an extra head...oh well.

people throughout the whole service were:

sleeping
using their phones
playing games
looking around
talking to one another
"going to the bathroom"......repeatedly


talk about communion of the saints, eh?!

I love the fact that we have AWESOME praise and worship at most of the churches I've gone to down here in SoCal, and the fact that like you said Bruce...its just an awesome, dynamic experience.


[quote]you would have to be me to understand how one can LEARN FROM and REJECT at the very same time[/quote]

I like this sentence.

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Apr 5 2004, 04:45 PM'] AMEN!!!!

I remember going to a couple catholic services growing up...a couple times I went with a girlfriend who was catholic, but I "just said no" to the Eucharist...and the Priest looked at me like I had sprouted an extra head...oh well.

people throughout the whole service were:

sleeping
using their phones
playing games
looking around
talking to one another
"going to the bathroom"......repeatedly


talk about communion of the saints, eh?!

I love the fact that we have AWESOME praise and worship at most of the churches I've gone to down here in SoCal, and the fact that like you said Bruce...its just an awesome, dynamic experience.




I like this sentence. [/quote]
Come up with something better than that!

[the lumberjack]

what do you want me to say????

that I saw them running to the holy water and filling up their super soakers?

I'm just typing what I saw...it don't get much better than that.


they were SLEEEEPING....


ZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzZZZZzzzZZZzzZZZzzzzZZz...



love.

[Dave]

Lumberjack, just because there are Catholics who don't live their faith doesn't mean Catholicism isn't true. Also, if you know that everyone was doing the things you mentioned, then it means you were guilty of doing one of the things you said people were doing during Mass instead of paying attention, namely, looking around!