The Soul: Does It Exist?

[Hassan]

[quote name='Servus_Mariae' date='19 September 2009 - 03:22 PM' timestamp='1253388127' post='1969276']
You could approach it epistemologically. How is it we come to know, and what is it that we come to know?

This capacity to obtain knowledge is called abstraction. In this way, the human person can grasp that which is incorporeal and can do so distinct from physical experiences.[/QUOTE]

How exactly do you define "abstraction"? You need to be much more clear on this point.

[QUOTE]These incorporeal realities are known and related as universals (e.g. Goodness: love, pleasure, beauty, truth...all of this is related to good and can be seen in these things; which consequently can be related to other things as well).[/QUOTE]

Pleasure is a neurological phenomena.

[QUOTE]The capacity to come to know that which is good or true or beautiful is unending. I have yet to meet a person of advanced age discover that their ability to obtain new information is impossible.[/QUOTE]

So? How does that constitute any evidence that any sort of information is infinite? Moreover even if it did what would it prove?

[QUOTE]Likewise, no amount of human beings can use up these concepts. No one can use up all of the "justice" or run out of the notion of "good".[/QUOTE]

Are you talking about the inexhaustibly of our ability to learn about these concepts or the concepts themselves?

[QUOTE]So, an infinite capacity (abstraction) to know that which is infinite in nature (concepts) indicates a faculty of infinite vitality.[/QUOTE]

Does a Turing Machine have an immortal soul?

Edited September 21, 2009 by Hassan

[Hassan]

[quote name='Christopher Brandon' date='21 September 2009 - 12:02 AM' timestamp='1253505728' post='1970189']


just like individuals experiance love, your not really going to tell me love is just hormones giving me a hard on are you?
[/quote]


What do you think love is?

[Christopher Brandon]

[quote name='Hassan' date='21 September 2009 - 12:12 AM' timestamp='1253506343' post='1970196']
What do you think love is?
[/quote]
I think love is an emotional and spiritual attachment to someone, or a group of someones.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Christopher Brandon' date='21 September 2009 - 12:18 AM' timestamp='1253506685' post='1970200']
I think love is an emotional and spiritual attachment to someone, or a group of someones.
[/quote]

You seemed distressed at the idea that I might consider love nothing more than a hormonal reaction (particular one of sexual arousal) yet an emotional response is precisely a bio-physical reaction. So on this count we seem to be on the same page. I'm not sure what you mean by a "spiritual" attachment.

[Servus_Mariae]

Thanks for your responses Hasaan...it's allot though, so I am going to take a bit to look at all of them more thrououghly.

[Servus_Mariae]

[quote]What do you mean by, "an end"?[/quote]

I mean an objective and final purpose for action. Without an objective end this life becomes what you make it...arbitrarily determined by the "end" you have established for yourself in this lifetime, which I would argue is no "end" at all. Let me explain; it would appear that the "good" is the end which we are all geared towards (its what we all want in some way) We all want "good things" however that is made manifest.

However, even if all were to agree on this point and pursue "the good", it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if you are good...there is no purpose for it, there is no objective "end". If I am happy and a good person...I still die and any good I experience comes to a halting conclusion without consideration to the good I had done.

"Death comes to us all"; this applies to the good and the bad of the world. If there is no life to come...then what distinguishes the two? There legacy? I suppose. But if this life is all there is, what good is a legacy to the dead?

I should have responded to this last...I assume allot in this post. I would ask that you refrain from critiquing this one (unless its for clarity's sake) until I get to the other ones...then you can have a field day. lol

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Hassan' date='21 September 2009 - 04:21 PM' timestamp='1253510470' post='1970294']
You seemed distressed at the idea that I might consider love nothing more than a hormonal reaction (particular one of sexual arousal) yet an emotional response is precisely a bio-physical reaction. So on this count we seem to be on the same page. I'm not sure what you mean by a "spiritual" attachment.
[/quote]

My wife and I have pretty much had zero physical attraction. Our bond is purely spiritual! A normal parent would not have a sexual attraction to their off spring yet have love to the point of self sacrifice.
The word love as a polite mataphor for hormonal attraction is a corruption of the word. Allegances based on this usually end in separation/divorce! True love is an example of the eternal world which permeates into this terminal existance and you take it with you when you go.

[Servus_Mariae]

Hey Hasaan...I haven't forgotten about this. I am in the midst of an exam week and things are kinda nuts. I'll get on this tomorrow or Friday.

[Guest nvzbl]

i got soul...

[Servus_Mariae]

[quote name='Hassan' date='20 September 2009 - 11:48 PM' timestamp='1253504898' post='1970177']

"What is the source of values in your system? Just that God arbitrarily thrusts certain value upon certain things?"

I hold the source of value to be that which is a most perfect manifestation of the good (which I hold to be objective). Recognizing God as the ultimate good, that which is good is not so because God arbitrarily thrust His "stamp" of approval on it. For example, Charity would not be considered wrong because God suggests it to be so nor does greed become virtuous if God blesses it. Rather, Charity is in correspondence with God's nature which is goodness itself and greed is not in correspondence with God's nature. The relationship between God and the thing I consider valuable is correspondence in nature.

I value something because it is God-like not God-liked.


"Yes. If by value you mean some transcendentally imposed standard."

Imposed would be an improper word. From an atheistic point, my position would be more like valuing things in correspondence with something that isn't actually there.


"I could agree with you until you brought in pleasure, which seemed an unnecessary addition.


Now you have confused your issues (actually you have all along, but I will point it out here). An immortal soul in and of itself has nothing to do with those matters."

If it seems like that post has little to do with proving the immortality of the soul...its because it had nothing to do with proving the immortality of the soul. I was seeking to address the futility of the life lived without an immortal soul.

A life lived without an afterlife means this life is all there is. If this is the case, then being a "good person" is just one manner of living among many for making this life worth living. This is where the pleasure part came in. The only thing that makes life useful are the "good times". What else do you have? These "good times" would be guided by no end in mind. So...whatever you do is irrelevant accept to attain pleasure (which is the only "end" in sight).

[/quote]

[mortify]

[quote name='Secuutus' date='18 September 2009 - 06:42 PM' timestamp='1253313773' post='1968869']
I believe we have soul, but in philosophy class today we got into a heated debate about it. So I was wandering what all of your views are on it. thanks!
[/quote]

All living things have a soul but their soul is material. Only man has a soul that is spirit and therefore capable of existing beyond bodily death.

[Ziggamafu]

[url="http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/determinism-causal/"]Material things are governed by laws and act necessarily.[/url]

If there is no soul, humans - like everything else - are strictly material objects.

Therefore, if there is no soul, humans act necessarily and free will must be an illusion.

(for more info on this, Google "Determinism" or check it out [url="http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/determinism-causal/#QuaMec"]here[/url])

***

Free will is a universally observed experience of conscious, medically healthy (i.e. "functioning") human beings. If this universally observed experience (free will) is to be vindicated (truly), then there must be some principle / reality at work in us that is not material. If we doubt the truth of so universal an experience, it would seem to take the wind out of all our other assertions. Interestingly, we can say the same thing about [i]intellect [/i]and [i]memory [/i]that we can say of [i]will[/i]. The "3 Powers of the Soul" perceived in Catholic philosophy are themselves proof enough of the soul in any conscious creature; that humans have [i]transcendent [/i]will (a freedom to violate instinct), memory (an awareness of intangible ideals rather than mere sensual experiences), and intellect (the ability to reflect back upon one's own reflection) is evidence of the human soul's unique privilege of being a spirit.

Edited September 28, 2009 by Ziggamafu

[Ziggamafu]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' date='28 September 2009 - 07:49 PM' timestamp='1254181759' post='1973985']
[url="http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/determinism-causal/"]Material things are governed by laws and act necessarily.[/url]

If there is no soul, humans - like everything else - are strictly material objects.

Therefore, if there is no soul, humans act necessarily and free will must be an illusion.

(for more info on this, Google "Determinism" or check it out [url="http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/determinism-causal/#QuaMec"]here[/url])

***

Free will is a universally observed experience of conscious, medically healthy (i.e. "functioning") human beings. If this universally observed experience (free will) is to be vindicated (truly), then there must be some principle / reality at work in us that is not material. If we doubt the truth of so universal an experience, it would seem to take the wind out of all our other assertions. Interestingly, we can say the same thing about [i]intellect [/i]and [i]memory [/i]that we can say of [i]will[/i]. The "3 Powers of the Soul" perceived in Catholic philosophy are themselves proof enough of the soul in any conscious creature; that humans have [i]transcendent [/i]will (a freedom to violate instinct), memory (an awareness of intangible ideals rather than mere sensual experiences), and intellect (the ability to reflect back upon one's own reflection) is evidence of the human soul's unique privilege of being a spirit.
[/quote]

:bump for Hassan's objection.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='mortify' date='27 September 2009 - 05:54 AM' timestamp='1253991278' post='1973021']
All living things have a soul but their soul is material. Only man has a soul that is spirit and therefore capable of existing beyond bodily death.
[/quote]
Wow! physics beyond the realm of the physical universe. I'd love to have a copy of the book. Can I get one at Amazon Com? In all seriousness where do you get such a notion from?

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' date='03 October 2009 - 09:32 PM' timestamp='1254619970' post='1977004']
Wow! physics beyond the realm of the physical universe. I'd love to have a copy of the book. Can I get one at Amazon Com?
[/quote]

I didn't see where he said anything about physics beyond the realm of the physical universe, but you sure can get something similar from Amazon. [url="http://www.amazon.com/Metaphysics-Aristotle-Great-Books-Philosophy/dp/0879756713"]Amazon.com "The Metaphysics," Aristotle. [/url] Metaphysics meaning "beyond physics."

~Sternhauser