Universal Salvation?

[sacredheartandbloodofjesus]

okay so the whole Universal Salvation argument....where does it stand in Church teaching, tradition, and scripture?

P.S. I already know its totally un-biblical and agaisnt tradition but just want to get this cleared up with someone I know so it would be nice to have some more proof.

[sacredheartandbloodofjesus]

Universal salvation as in everyone is saved, even satanist and murderers without repenting. They may go through a whole lot of purgatory but in the end nobody but satan and his angels will be in Hell for eternity.

again I dont believe in this but there are people who do, surprisingly.

[scardella]

The idea of universal salvation at least somewhat contradicts free will. If we say that everyone definitely goes to heaven, then that contradicts free will, because everyone is free to choose heaven or hell.

AFAIK, even with the understanding that post-death someone who chose hell could change their mind and go into heaven, you still have to account for the possibility that they would never choose heaven for all eternity.

So, you could HOPE and PRAY for universal salvation, but it's not tenable as doctrine.

[Apotheoun]

The answer to your question depends on what is meant by the word "salvation." The recapitulation of all things in Christ is a revealed truth.

[perfectunion33]

[i]"[/i]Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there are who go in thereat. How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way that leadeth to life: and few there are that find it!"
(Matt. 7:13-14)

[perfectunion33]

What he is trying to get at is the fact that some people claim that even if one were to die in a state of mortal sin that person would still have a chance to enter into Heaven after the judgement. Which as he stated in his first post, is clearly against Sacred Scripture and Catholic Tradition.

[Apotheoun]

But what is not being taken into account is the fact that the Church Fathers (e.g., St. John Chrysostom in his homilies on 1st Corinthians) see hell as a form of salvation, i.e., as salvation from non-being.

[Gregorius]

But didn't you also say that in the Eastern Tradition, Heaven and hell are both the effects of the presence of God?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Gregorius' date='16 September 2009 - 04:42 PM' timestamp='1253140922' post='1967767']
But didn't you also say that in the Eastern Tradition, Heaven and hell are both the effects of the presence of God?
[/quote]
Yes. Heaven and hell only became possible with the incarnation of the Son of God. Prior to the incarnation created existence was unraveling, i.e., it was inexorably moving toward non-being, but the incarnation stabilized creation by giving all things ever-being (cf. St. Maximos the Confessor, [i]Ad Thalassium[/i]).

Edited September 16, 2009 by Apotheoun

[perfectunion33]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='16 September 2009 - 04:34 PM' timestamp='1253140461' post='1967757']
But what is not being taken into account is the fact that the Church Fathers (e.g., St. John Chrysostom in his homilies on 1st Corinthians) see hell as a form of salvation, i.e., as salvation from non-being.
[/quote]


Now when you say that Hell is a form of salvation, are you implying that it is better for man to be condemned to Hell for all eternity than to not have existed at all?

[Maggyie]

[quote name='perfectunion33' date='16 September 2009 - 11:17 PM' timestamp='1253153865' post='1967887']
Now when you say that Hell is a form of salvation, are you implying that it is better for man to be condemned to Hell for all eternity than to not have existed at all?
[/quote]

This is the traditional view of the Westnen Church as well, I believe. St. Augustine teaches that existence itself is good and that it is better for the damned "to exist than not to exist." St Thomas says that Hell is ordained for good, and not only for justice. Existence is a gift from God, and God as Creator does not withdraw His gift or annihilate even in the case of Lucifer.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='perfectunion33' date='16 September 2009 - 08:17 PM' timestamp='1253153865' post='1967887']
Now when you say that Hell is a form of salvation, are you implying that it is better for man to be condemned to Hell for all eternity than to not have existed at all?
[/quote]
Yep. Christ has saved everyone from falling into non-being. Now, whether the experience of ever-being is going to be blissful or painful is left in the power of man's free will in cooperation with God's grace (cf. St. Maximos the Confessor, [i]Chapters on Love[/i]).

[Mark of the Cross]

It is said that there is one unforgivable sin. That is to blaspheme the Holy Spirit. Some people interpret this to mean people who reject faith even in death. Sounds logical to me since repentance as demonstrated by the thief who took pity on Jesus was meant to show that even at the point of death it is possible to obtain salvation no matter what sins you may have committed. This could be the only interpretation of salvation for all. To me to endure the pains and chains of mortal life and then to cease to exist and not have God's eternal love would be 'Hell for eternity'.