New Carmelite Monastery In Elysburg, Pa

[Orans]

[quote name='Thomist-in-Training' date='17 September 2009 - 11:17 AM' timestamp='1253200631' post='1968046'] OK, the explanations about the upper hallway were very interesting. Orans, I don't know what a tribune is though. I looked on Google and found a book about Poor Clare architecture, actually, which mentions not being able to see the altar at Mass as we were discussing.

[size="1"][url="http://books.google.com/books?id=A7Cv3YAuLK8C&pg=PA280&lpg=PA280&dq=tribune+monastic&source=bl&ots=sX3zy4xswP&sig=N8z82ccnY5CFnW1Rb0vghFj4i68&hl=en&ei=A1KySqO9H47-MNuSvbsL&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6#v=onepage&q=tribune%20monastic&f=false"]http://books.google....onastic&f=false[/url][/size]

But it didn't exactly say [i]what [/i]it is, so would you explain or link to a photo? Thanks! [/quote]

A tribune is a kind of a balcony more or less enclosed -from totally open to walled up except for a (usually) grilled window of varied size. Unlike the balcony, a tribune doesn't necessarily invade the space it looks over.

This is very common in European church architecture over the centuries, especially in monastery churches where it serves a need in communites, that is to have more than one place of access to Mass, or communal prayer, or the Tabernacle.

Because churches have almost always higher ceilings than the adjacent spaces (which often are just ordinary living quarters), it is very easy to set a tribune over a church, chapel, choir, etc. just by not closing up a wall, or by opening a window, or even removing a whole wall over a part ot the church space.

I think we all are familiar with a tribune in the back of the church, sometimes called upper choir, often over the entrance door area.

I've seen a tribune in monasteries overlooking the main altar from the upper side of the sanctuary, over the main altar and the tabernacle, enclosed with a thick grill that continues the wall. A person can be in the presence of the Eucharist, or following Mass there without being spotted by anybody. Many monasteries have this.

Sorry I haven't found the images I'm talking about, but the link you found has a good description.
I'm posting some pictures that are not the monastic variation directly over the sanctuary but hope will give you an idea:

Enclosed tribune with grill: [url="http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/5937/dsc02283hu0.jpg"]http://img227.images...dsc02283hu0.jpg[/url]

Big open tribunes/balconies over both sides of the nave of this church:
[url="http://archone.tamu.edu/college/news/newsletters/spring2008/stories/texasChurches/serbin-interior.jpg"]http://archone.tamu....in-interior.jpg[/url]

[Orans]

[quote name='Thomist-in-Training' date='17 September 2009 - 11:17 AM' timestamp='1253200631' post='1968046']
From the Vatican article on Mother Maravillas:

I've heard the phrase "Teresian Carmelites" before. But I always thought it meant the same as "Discalced" since the Discalced Carmelite are sort of the 'Reform of St. Teresa.' Does "Teresian" sometimes imply then specifically "Discalced Carmelite monasteries in the more primitive tradition of the Discalced, as restored by Mother Maravillas"?
[/quote]

I too believe that Teresian Carmelites and Discalzed Carmelites are the same. This Carmelites also explain it thus: [url="http://carmelholyland.org/english/inhfamille.htm"]http://carmelholylan.../inhfamille.htm[/url]

I don't think there is another meaning or distinction ... but maybe some Phatmas Carmelite experts will have a different say [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/graduate.gif[/img] ??

[Indwelling Trinity]

Teresian Carmelite means all Carmelites of the reform of Saint Teresa. As for no kneelers, that is common for Teresian Carmels In none of the momastaries I belonged to did we have kneelers. However in Port Tobacco in the storage bottom of the choir bench was kept a little taize type stool that you could kneel and sit back a little while praying; kind of a semi kneeling position. Whereas in the 199O's we knelt during the whole mass except for the Gospel also during the hours of prayer we either knelt the entire hour or sat but once having decided which position to take we were to stay like that the entire hour so as not to distract others with much moving. But that was in My Particular Carmel.

The 1991's were more flexible as prayer could also be made in the cell or hermitage. O. Carm nuns use full chior stalls.And yes the grille on the second floor was usually for those in the infirmary to attend mass.

Indwelling Trinity

[Indwelling Trinity]

Just as an aside, The Missionaries of Charity also do not use any kneelers and either kneel or sit on the floor at all functions in chapel.

Actually in all my years in religious life I have never used a kneeler or choir stall and to be truthful using kneelers in church are a real penance for me as they often are too short and dig into the joint of your knees. Laughing... but that is just me

Indwelling Trinity

Edited September 18, 2009 by Indwelling Trinity

[AccountDeleted]

At Kirk Edge, during meditation the nuns knelt for only the first 5-10 minutes of prayer, then Mother would give "the knock" and sisters could either use a prayer stool (two kinds - either the taize type meditation stool close to the ground or the Carmelite stool with the hole/handle in the middle) or if they couldn't use either of these for physical reasons, they could sit in the choir stall or on a chair (the very elderly used a chair with a chair pad). Towards the end of prayer, Mother would knock again, and then we would return to kneeling for the last 5-10 minutes. The infirm could stand whenever we knelt.

During Mass, once again, we could use either type of stool or the choir stall if necessary, but we were up and down so much with the standing, sitting, kneeling, of the Mass, that although I liked to use the taize stool, once I had to use the choir stall because my knees were actually getting sore. The kneeling isn't half as hard as the getting up and down again over and over again. I love kneeling, and in Singapore, the Adoration chapels have just a big empty room with a bench along the back wall, and some cushions piled in a corner for those who need them. I find that after a while, callouses form on the knees that actually provide padding, so I don't mind kneeling for long periods of time. I love the taize stool for meditation though - it is less distracting when the body is not protesting.

At Edmonton, they had no stools of any kind, and we HAD to use the choir stalls. I did not like this because I found the seats hard for my bony backside, plus it seemed to put a strain on my back unless I sat very far forward on the stall, almost like a stool. At Wolverhampton, we could use whatever was most comfortable and least distracting. In the old days in England anyway, the Carmelites used to sit on their habits, which were much thicker and longer then, and they would roll them into a sort of little cushion underneath them. They also use a sort of hard rectangular cushion and sit sort of sidesaddle on it, but I found this gave me a twisted back which was not conducive to spending a long time in prayer.

As for seeing the Mass in Carmel, at both Edmonton and Wolverhampton, the grilles were arranged in such a way that we could see, the altar, the Tabernacle and the priest - wonderful! At Kirk Edge (Sheffield), my position in choir was so far to the side that my vision was very limited. The chapel was arranged with the Tabernacle against the far wall, so I couldn't see that. During the week, the priest would stand at the side of the altar, facing us in the choir, so I could see him them, but not when he went to his podium to read the gospel. On Sundays, he stood at the back of the altar facing the congregation, so I could only see his hands occasionally, and couldn't see him during the gospel or homily. Basically I couldn't see the Mass, and I could barely hear it, although I could see the congregation come up to receive communion. I offered it all up to Jesus because it hurt so much. Then one day, Mother told me to switch from the Sub-Prioress' side of the choir to hers, and from that side I could see everything except the congregation, which was fine for me! I was very happy then because I could see the Tabernacle with the Blessed Sacrament and all of the Mass, especially the consecration.

All the Carmels seem to have their own way of doing things, even though they are similar in many ways. I think the foundress makes a big difference. Many of the Carmels in England were founded by Mother Mary of Jesus from France, and they all seem to have a similar flavor, but then there were also a lot founded from Belgium as well, and they are probably more like each other in customs.